What Power Cord are you using with the BDP1?

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Sasha

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Re: What Power Cord are you using with the BDP1?
« Reply #40 on: 15 May 2012, 04:24 pm »
Let’s see if those who claim audibility between a number of well designed and built power cords on BDP-1 are willing to put their money where their mouth is.
I am willing to put a bet of $1000.00 against such claims.
We perform a test on your system using any of the recordings you are familiar with.
I bring 3 different power cords.
You will be given an opportunity to listen any number of times for any length of time to well known recording while BDP-1 is powered by each of 3 power cords, knowing every time what power cord was used so that you can get firm grasp on differences you hear and associate those differences with each of the power cords.
Then you listen 15 times to the same familiar recording, each time with randomly selected power cable from the test group, of course you will not be told what power cord is used.
If you manage to determine what power cord was used each time more than 70% of the time $1000.00 is yours, if not you give me $1000.00.

NMG

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Re: What Power Cord are you using with the BDP1?
« Reply #41 on: 15 May 2012, 09:17 pm »
Sasha,

First, be careful of violating US laws on Internet wagering.

Second, the test you propose is not a reliable test of the audibility of different PC's. You are requiring listeners to pick one PC from many. A more reliable test is requiring a listener to choose between the stock cord for the BDP-1 and a selected aftermarket PC when listening to different tracks. In this type of test, I am confident the vast majority of listeners could pick out which is the stock cord, which is the custom cord, more than 70% of the time. When you use multiple PC's, auditory memory is just too transient to be reliable.

They used to say there was no audible difference among IC's, and few today believe that.  :icon_lol:

Neal

DS-21

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Re: What Power Cord are you using with the BDP1?
« Reply #42 on: 15 May 2012, 10:12 pm »
They used to say there was no audible difference among IC's, and few today believe that.  :icon_lol:

Neal

How do you know that "few" still "believe" that? Have you done a study on the matter? Do you have one to cite?

(Let's ignore for the moment that a falsifiable claim such as "audible difference among IC's" is not something subject to "belief," but rather empirical proof.)

Just because the audio wire marketers and audio parts dealers (along with the press they buy and pay for) wish something were true, that does not make it so.

Sasha

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Re: What Power Cord are you using with the BDP1?
« Reply #43 on: 15 May 2012, 10:18 pm »
Sasha,

First, be careful of violating US laws on Internet wagering.

Second, the test you propose is not a reliable test of the audibility of different PC's. You are requiring listeners to pick one PC from many. A more reliable test is requiring a listener to choose between the stock cord for the BDP-1 and a selected aftermarket PC when listening to different tracks. In this type of test, I am confident the vast majority of listeners could pick out which is the stock cord, which is the custom cord, more than 70% of the time. When you use multiple PC's, auditory memory is just too transient to be reliable.

They used to say there was no audible difference among IC's, and few today believe that.  :icon_lol:

Neal
I do not consider your approach valid, if I am the one that claims PCs make such an audible difference and I am to pick a “selected” aftermarket PC and compare it to stock PC, I can certainly select PC with construction that will alter performance of powered component in a distinguished way, but that does not prove what is argued here, it is simply cheating.
If you read what is being described in these posts, it is nothing short of revelation when one PC was swapped with another, so auditory memory should not be a problem.

adprom

Re: What Power Cord are you using with the BDP1?
« Reply #44 on: 17 May 2012, 01:26 am »
And as it turns out I would most certainly take Rollo's system over Adproms.
Why is that? Because Rollo treats this hobby with a trained ear on audio. Unlike Adprom who's system would have no audible signature outside some idea built around specs.....yuk gross....gives me shivers thinking about it.

You do realise it is engineering that builds the amplifiers, dacs, media streamers, players and speakers you use? Not beliefs, hunches and hippy crystals. When building an amplifier, engineers dont think in the way that audiophiles do and it has little to do with a trained ear which has more to do with critically listening to music rather than comparing the output of two devices....

Of course you will never hear from an audiophile about an objective test they have used to differentiate differences.... its all on emotional hunches and magic driven by their emotion to want some change because of a decision they made, of course sighted and know about.

The placebo effect is very much applicable to audio and most audiophiles, particularly those who take a pride in "tweaking" are suckers for it.

Its up there with audio grade ethernet cable.

Good audio equipment is so because of well applied engineering. Not a mystical belief system and magic.

Reminds me of the sound show where a couple of manufacturers (in fact it may have been PMC and bryston) who connected their equipment up with cheap cables simply of sufficient gauge. Not one person over the entire show noticed despite the fact the setup was a huge success.

Sasha

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Re: What Power Cord are you using with the BDP1?
« Reply #45 on: 17 May 2012, 02:09 am »
Its up there with audio grade ethernet cable.
I cannot comprehend how anyone in their right mind can fall for crap like “audio grade Ethernet cable”, it must be a complete lack of fundamental knowledge or plain foolishness on someone’s part to even contemplate a possibility of Ethernet cable having an effect.

werd

Re: What Power Cord are you using with the BDP1?
« Reply #46 on: 17 May 2012, 02:16 am »
You do realise it is engineering that builds the amplifiers, dacs, media streamers, players and speakers you use? Not beliefs, hunches and hippy crystals. When building an amplifier, engineers dont think in the way that audiophiles do and it has little to do with a trained ear which has more to do with critically listening to music rather than comparing the output of two devices....







No i didn't, really tell me more. What is this engineering?....omg this is amazing. Man you've changed everything. Do you go to college?, you are so smart.....


shivers....... shaking at the thought of listening

PRELUDE

Re: What Power Cord are you using with the BDP1?
« Reply #47 on: 17 May 2012, 02:51 am »
I cannot comprehend how anyone in their right mind can fall for crap like “audio grade Ethernet cable”, it must be a complete lack of fundamental knowledge or plain foolishness on someone’s part to even contemplate a possibility of Ethernet cable having an effect.
Just wondering what else we have left that is not audio grade yet.I think foolishness will fit the best.
But that foolishness will become a brand new business if people support it.

Lissnr

Re: What Power Cord are you using with the BDP1?
« Reply #48 on: 17 May 2012, 03:37 am »
  What amazes me about all these "technicians" is how they are so convinced they are absolutely right about cables making no difference that they can't possibly be truly listening with their EARS! Their minds are telling them how there will be no difference and their ears simply obey the command and refuse to acknowledge reality! This is the only explanation I can think of for these poor lost souls...basking in their superior sense of "correctness" they will never know the many nuances that exist in the [sometimes unmeasurable]  sonic rewards found in such blasphemous concepts  as system / component synergy, resonance control, cable matching/upgrades, acoustic room treatments, tube swapping and tweaks of all sorts that can truly add obvious and rewarding improvements to a system.
   On the other hand...maybe it's not truly their fault... it could simply be a hearing problem/physical handicap [and I would never belittle someone in that situation...]...sort of like the kid who had a lisp or stutter who worked so hard to overcome it and ended up being a TV newscaster! True stories of this abound! So, as I said...if they really can't hear the obvious improvement of a good quality aftermarket powercord (let's use a sample from a reputable name like Shunyata...) over a stock cord that came with their amp, pre-amp, or digital player...(almost every audiophile with a decent ear could pick out the difference 100 out of 100 times between the 2 in a system they're familiar with in a random blindfolded test setting)...then you could at least find some comfort by telling yourself over and over that it can't be true and you are still right.
  Enjoy that guys...meanwhile we'll be enjoying our lovely, personally - tweaked - to - our - own - satisfaction music...

adprom

Re: What Power Cord are you using with the BDP1?
« Reply #49 on: 17 May 2012, 04:37 am »
(almost every audiophile with a decent ear could pick out the difference 100 out of 100 times between the 2 in a system they're familiar with in a random blindfolded test setting)..

Big claim there.... if you are so sure go and do it in a controlled test.

Technician? Umm not quite lol. Demented or handicapped? Now that is just going to the whole point which is being made, emotionally some people are so attached to the fanciful idea that they can make choices which influences their gear and improves it that it is no more than the placebo effect.

As I have covered previously, the sort of stuff we are talking about are well well within our limits of measurement. That is not an issue.

To suggest we havent tested for ourselves either is incorrect. Somehow the objective engineering method is what makes bryston as good as they are with their designs, however once it leaves the factory those principles no longer apply to the decisions people make? That is just ludicrous.

If people are happy with what is no more than the placebo effect and psycho acoustics then that is fine, but lets not mistake it for actual engineering or design which makes a real difference.

As I said, if you are so sure about what you claim, go and do the test in a verifiable, repeatable, observed experiment.

I find it somewhat humorous that those who dont agree with what I say have to resort to personal insults and claim a level of superiority over those who supposedly cant hear those minute differences.

The reality is, that I am really just questioning and pointing out what this really is, an emotional psychological effect and the insecurity around that is what results in the fairly emotional responses rather than a logical, well reasoned argument.

Imagine if we practiced medicine like that... wait areas of the world do and there is still no cure for cancer.

The reality is an inconvenient truth to those who want to believe they can somehow get extra out of their system without logic or reason. The really annoying part is though, that this feeds certain vulturistic companies who prey on that

werd

Re: What Power Cord are you using with the BDP1?
« Reply #50 on: 17 May 2012, 05:13 am »



If people are happy with what is no more than the placebo effect and psycho acoustics then that is fine, but lets not mistake it for actual engineering or design which makes a real difference.





The reality is, that I am really just questioning and pointing out what this really is, an emotional psychological effect and the insecurity around that is what results in the fairly emotional responses rather than a logical, well reasoned argument.

Imagine if we practiced medicine like that... wait areas of the world do and there is still no cure for cancer.



Makes a real difference in what? ... You can't answer that. You cant answer that because you've dug yourself to far into your own BS so as not be able to answer that with out sounding like an audiophool. What are you going to say. According to the specs it has low distortion. Wtf does low distortion mean?. It means you've got clarity and resolution. You can start hearing instrument detail and air. OMG i must be delusional i am refering to resolution from low distortion. I guess i am an audiophool.

You see where i am going with this. Specs are just specs. Unless you can communicate what those specs mean interms of what you hear then you are only  communicating one part of what this hobby is all about. You are missing the whole point of this hobby. People who only talk about specs and nothing else are the real audiophools in this hobby. Thats pretty easy to see.


Anyways, one of the biggest jokes i laugh about are those speccy guys who haven't figured out that test subjects in any listening procedure are human. Being able to hear and communicate  has nothing to do with electricity in electronics. Its psychological issue. The test subjects are human and not the equipment.  So if you are going to test hearing EEs please stay away. They are no more qualified in commenting about why people hear things then Puffy the space dog with a rocket launcher attached to its ass.....

adprom

Re: What Power Cord are you using with the BDP1?
« Reply #51 on: 17 May 2012, 06:04 am »
Makes a real difference in what? ... You can't answer that. You cant answer that because you've dug yourself to far into your own BS so as not be able to answer that with out sounding like an audiophool. What are you going to say. According to the specs it has low distortion. Wtf does low distortion mean?. It means you've got clarity and resolution. You can start hearing instrument detail and air. OMG i must be delusional i am refering to resolution from low distortion. I guess i am an audiophool.

You see where i am going with this. Specs are just specs. Unless you can communicate what those specs mean interms of what you hear then you are only  communicating one part of what this hobby is all about. You are missing the whole point of this hobby. People who only talk about specs and nothing else are the real audiophools in this hobby. Thats pretty easy to see.


Anyways, one of the biggest jokes i laugh about are those speccy guys who haven't figured out that test subjects in any listening procedure are human. Being able to hear and communicate  has nothing to do with electricity in electronics. Its psychological issue. The test subjects are human and not the equipment.  So if you are going to test hearing EEs please stay away. They are no more qualified in commenting about why people hear things then Puffy the space dog with a rocket launcher attached to its ass.....

1. There is a lot more to it than a single harmonic distortion statistic.
2. When you know about slew rates, biasing transistors, the different response characteristics of different types of transistors, negative feedback etc you can get back to me. Im not here to give an EE lecture - simply point out that it isnt magical properties which make this stuff work and good engineering
3. Sound systems are not a musical device, or responsible for creating music. They are there for sound reproduction
4. It only makes sense to understand why you are hearing what you are - unfortunately so,e when faced with the very real reality of psycho acoustics and placebo effects don't like it
5. The claims of what can and cant be measured by those who admit themselves they arent technical experts are often rubbish. Once again, anything you hear can actually be measured in terms of signal reproduction. Not just statistics but looking at the actual waveform
6. I couldnt care less when or where you laugh at, particularly on areas well out of your expertise.

There is no logical reason to not understand and measure what people hear including some tests to isolate whether the listener is responsible for the change from a psychological perspective. The evidence supporting this has been verified over and over, no one said anything about choosing systems based in specs but it is about understanding the differences heard and eliminating the listener as a variable, if you want accurate reproduction.

So no, there is no hole... The irony that listeners rely on the experience and technical knowledge of the engineers in the first place that builds the equipment, yet choose to ignore the science after it leaves the factory is ironic.

Omce again, if people want to believe their choice to tinker is making a difference, thats what they will hear. Confirmation bias is a very strong effect and very well known.

Many so called audiophiles hang on to a romantic notion that their tweaking and upgrades are making incredible differences when all that really changes is their own perception.

Audio reproduction isnt based magic and as such certain tweaks based on misguided beliefs rather than science only affect the listener, not the signal in the system.

terrycym

Re: What Power Cord are you using with the BDP1?
« Reply #52 on: 17 May 2012, 06:16 am »
So, what power cord are you using with your BDP-1?

werd

Re: What Power Cord are you using with the BDP1?
« Reply #53 on: 17 May 2012, 07:21 am »
So, what power cord are you using with your BDP-1?

A nice one

adprom

Re: What Power Cord are you using with the BDP1?
« Reply #54 on: 17 May 2012, 09:14 am »
Don't use a BDP-1 - use several other bryston components including BDA-1, SP3 and a range of other equipment. Had been given some to try, didn't do a thing. Not really surprising.

Stock standard ones are perfectly fine and offer equal 'performance' if that is what you are asking.

Lissnr

Re: What Power Cord are you using with the BDP1?
« Reply #55 on: 17 May 2012, 10:31 am »
I have a BDA-1 and found several make a nice improvement (as almost any decent aftermarket cable will over stock). I have used VH Audio Flavor 4, Signal Cable Magic and a company called "Ear to Ear", all with good results but my current favorite by far is an "8G American" from a company called Triode Wire Labs (TWL). Wow. Much deeper richer tone...a more natural and organic overall ease of presentation and so much more lifelike...you will never go back to stock and I'm quite certain almost anyone who believes their ears (even in totally random testing...and I mean RANDOM ) will hear it too. Good luck.

terrycym

Re: What Power Cord are you using with the BDP1?
« Reply #56 on: 17 May 2012, 10:39 am »
I have a BDA-1 and found several make a nice improvement (as almost any decent aftermarket cable will over stock). I have used VH Audio Flavor 4, Signal Cable Magic and a company called "Ear to Ear", all with good results but my current favorite by far is an "8G American" from a company called Triode Wire Labs (TWL). Wow. Much deeper richer tone...a more natural and organic overall ease of presentation and so much more lifelike...you will never go back to stock and I'm quite certain almost anyone who believes their ears (even in totally random testing...and I mean RANDOM ) will hear it too. Good luck.

That's all very well and I respect your findings but the OP referred to the BDP-1 specifically. Does changing the mains lead specifically to this device make a difference.

Does the results from your BDA-1 infer that similar results will be heard when used with the BDP-1?
« Last Edit: 17 May 2012, 12:44 pm by terrycym »

adprom

Re: What Power Cord are you using with the BDP1?
« Reply #57 on: 17 May 2012, 11:53 am »
That's all very well and I respect your findings but the OP referred to the BDP-1 specifically. Does changing the mainsleadspecifically to this device make a difference.

Does the results from your BDA-1 infer that similar results will be heard when used with the BDP-1?

No, the results matched what was expected. Not to mention, the BDP-1 is a digital transport... Not quite sure what output characteristic you are expecting a power cable to change. It isn't a case that it will magically work for one device and not others.

It is as if audiophiles throw away all knowledge and science for some unsubstantiated whacky claims that are up there with hippy crystals.

As mentioned, try a true double blind test and see what outcome you get...

werd

Re: What Power Cord are you using with the BDP1?
« Reply #58 on: 17 May 2012, 12:27 pm »
No, the results matched what was expected. Not to mention, the BDP-1 is a digital transport... Not quite sure what output characteristic you are expecting a power cable to change. It isn't a case that it will magically work for one device and not others.

It is as if audiophiles throw away all knowledge and science for some unsubstantiated whacky claims that are up there with hippy crystals.

As mentioned, try a true double blind test and see what outcome you get...

He wasn't talking to you. But I don't expect that matters since you think you own this thread.

Sasha

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Re: What Power Cord are you using with the BDP1?
« Reply #59 on: 17 May 2012, 12:43 pm »
1. There is a lot more to it than a single harmonic distortion statistic.
2. When you know about slew rates, biasing transistors, the different response characteristics of different types of transistors, negative feedback etc you can get back to me. Im not here to give an EE lecture - simply point out that it isnt magical properties which make this stuff work and good engineering
3. Sound systems are not a musical device, or responsible for creating music. They are there for sound reproduction
4. It only makes sense to understand why you are hearing what you are - unfortunately so,e when faced with the very real reality of psycho acoustics and placebo effects don't like it
5. The claims of what can and cant be measured by those who admit themselves they arent technical experts are often rubbish. Once again, anything you hear can actually be measured in terms of signal reproduction. Not just statistics but looking at the actual waveform
6. I couldnt care less when or where you laugh at, particularly on areas well out of your expertise.

There is no logical reason to not understand and measure what people hear including some tests to isolate whether the listener is responsible for the change from a psychological perspective. The evidence supporting this has been verified over and over, no one said anything about choosing systems based in specs but it is about understanding the differences heard and eliminating the listener as a variable, if you want accurate reproduction.

So no, there is no hole... The irony that listeners rely on the experience and technical knowledge of the engineers in the first place that builds the equipment, yet choose to ignore the science after it leaves the factory is ironic.

Omce again, if people want to believe their choice to tinker is making a difference, thats what they will hear. Confirmation bias is a very strong effect and very well known.

Many so called audiophiles hang on to a romantic notion that their tweaking and upgrades are making incredible differences when all that really changes is their own perception.

Audio reproduction isnt based magic and as such certain tweaks based on misguided beliefs rather than science only affect the listener, not the signal in the system.
While I do not deny minute audible differences can be noticed between power cords (which is the subject here, not cables in general) of significantly different construction, and on some equipment only, they are of a far less significance than what some on these forums are trying to present, to the point where it is not possible to consistently pick such difference. After all the challenge in this thread still remains unanswered.
I do not have a problem with expressions of opinions, even heated discussion and bold claims when they are substantiated with meaningful explanation, some reason and logic, but constant driveling full of insults by people that clearly demonstrated a complete lack of any related knowledge in their numerous posts is very tiresome.
When you read what such people write on different subject it is laughable that they have audacity to lecture others. Do not waste time on them.
The following is the quote from one of the posts made by one of pompous arrogant posters on the subject of tone controls:
“All they do is mask faulty frequencies that your amp can't drive with a new and improved self-set frequencies that your amp has an easier time driving.”
So what kind of debate can you have with someone who is capable of saying such nonsense, especially when such person starts using such meaningless constructions to impose his views on others, and even starts questioning rights of others who do not buy this nonsense to post on the forum?
This thread is full of such constructions, and there is really no room for any meaningful discussion with such people, do not waste your time.