[vortrex]

Are you being purposely dense? They have to get a cabinetmaker involved and pay them. With prebuilt cabinets then you just drill holes. Note that unlike Salk this INCLUDES the cost of the veneer.

that's not very nice of you to say. 

I'm sure he has cabinet makers, I don't think he buys prebuilt cabinets for every speaker he has in his stable.  again, if cabinets of that size/shape are $200 retail, that pretty much says how much they cost to make.  of course the number will be a little higher in lower quantities, but still.

[ricardojoa]

I believe the 1k surcharge on the custom tempesta includes wood trim and full front bafle veneered. Rick had listed the cost on other model with just veneer on the cabinet with the standard black bafle and it was around 500 +/-more.

[doug s.]

that's not very nice of you to say. 

I'm sure he has cabinet makers, I don't think he buys prebuilt cabinets for every speaker he has in his stable.  again, if cabinets of that size/shape are $200 retail, that pretty much says how much they cost to make.  of course the number will be a little higher in lower quantities, but still.

sorry, vortrex, not meaning to be rude, or "not nice", but, to be frank, my reaction was the same as kip's.  when a cabinet maker gets inwolved, the costs go way up.  if you look at the cost to "upgrade" a finish on a custom cabinet, it won't be as much as upgrading a finish on an off-the shelf cabinet that is awreddy finished.  it is excruciatingly simple...

doug s.

[kip_]

I'm sure he has cabinet makers, I don't think he buys prebuilt cabinets for every speaker he has in his stable.  again, if cabinets of that size/shape are $200 retail, that pretty much says how much they cost to make.  of course the number will be a little higher in lower quantities, but still.

His floorstanders and line arrays are nearly all in custom cabinets. The one floorstander exception is the Texas revelator tower. Same goes for his low profile center channels.

[jonbee]

This whole discussion has degenerated into idiocy. This is very simple:
At $3300 in the basic finish, the Tempesta is undoubtedly the best vale in a true high end performer. There's nothing close. The cabinets are very well made. Based on the utter cleanliness of the bass and midbass, whatever the cabinets are contributing to the sound is very limited. I've had many very experienced 'philes over the hear them, and they have been universal in their unconditional praise. As I said before : IT IS ABOUT THE SOUND OF THE SPEAKERS, not the BS from those who've not even heard them! That's why I've owned over 250 pairs of hi-end speakers- it's my ears that count, not theories!
If you want better looks, and can afford it, as I can, at $4300 they are still a screaming bargain, with looks to match their sound quality. I can attest that attaining the quality of the upgraded finish is not a trivial matter.
When you pay up for leather seats in your Buick, GM makes a higher profit margin overall. That's the nature of luxury goods pricing.
Considering what we're getting for the $, if Rick or Ryan or Jim or whomever actually can make a living from this, I'm happy. I've got the value I want, and they stay in business to bring this quality to more people who can appreciate it. These are not public utilities!
If you think you can do better for the $, buy the Tempesta kit and build your own cabinets.

[wilsynet]

I'm not really sure what the argument is.

• Selah does not list a separate price for custom versus standard veneers for floor standing models.  Presumably, the up charge for custom veneers on a floor stander may be less as a percentage of total cost than it is for a monitor.
  
• Selah does list a $1000 up charge for their monitor line.  All of them, not just the Tempesta.
  

If the question is, why does it cost more for a custom veneer from Selah versus other manufactures for their monitor line, the answer is:

• For the monitor line only, Selah buys pre-fabricated, high volume production cabinets.  Likely from Parts Express.  Selah probably pays list price from Parts Express given that Selah does not move sufficient volume of monitors to get a better price than what Parts Express would charge.
  
• It costs way, way more to strip the stock veneer (maple or cherry) and then apply a custom veneer than it would cost to simply have applied the custom veneer on an unfinished cabinet.
  

Would Selah be better off constructing the cabinet from scratch to begin with?

Maybe.  Presumably Selah did a cost benefit analysis and decided to ship a stock cabinet and re-finish the cabinet if a custom veneer is desired by the customer.

Constructing a bespoke cabinet may very well cost north of $800.  If you factor in margin and markup to the customer, it may cost more than $1200, which is the price of the Parts Express cabinet plus the $1000 up charge for a custom veneer.

While perhaps Selah might be better off doing this, that's really a question that can only be answered if we look deep into what Selah is trying to optimize for, what production, R&D, and tooling costs exist, whether time to market is important, whether transformation costs and time are important, whether they expected more people to buy the standard veneer or more people to buy a custom veneer.

[doug s.]

This whole discussion has degenerated into idiocy. This is very simple:
At $3300 in the basic finish, the Tempesta is undoubtedly the best vale in a true high end performer. There's nothing close.

hey jon, didn't you say you have never heard the wapor cirrus'?  they start at $3700.  i am not trying to take anything away from the tempestas - i am sure they're as good as you say.  but saying "there's nothing close" sounds like more than a little bit of hyperbole to me.  and, as i have stated prewiously, i haven't heard any of these...  and, who knows - there may be countless others as good or better than any of these in this price range...

ymmv,

doug s.

[roscoeiii]

This whole discussion has degenerated into idiocy. This is very simple:
At $3300 in the basic finish, the Tempesta is undoubtedly the best vale in a true high end performer. There's nothing close. .

Jonbee, I appreciate your enthusiasm for Selah but how can you make this statement if you haven't heard the speakers under discussion? And I fail to believe that there would even be an across-the-board winner. Speaker designs all involve tradeoffs and all of us also have different tastes in what types of music we listen to and what aspects of musical reproduction are most important to us.

Selah, Vapor and Salk are all very well thought of by a decent number of ACers.

And to the OP, I will also suggest looking into some other options by other speaker builders who have solid followings: The Odyssey Kismet Reference Monitor, and the speakers from Aether Audio (formerly SP Tech). As I think I mentioned earlier, Fritz Speakers is another company well worth looking into.

For me, I went with SP Tech Minis because they suited my priorities and the price was right. Happy to elaborate on why I chose these speakers if folks would like.

What led me to their waveguide design? Listening to an early version of the Vapor Aurora, a speaker I still lust after.

[vortrex]

When you pay up for leather seats in your Buick, GM makes a higher profit margin overall. That's the nature of luxury goods pricing.

I hate to keep beating a dead horse here, but if Buick has optional $1k leather seats and Ford has optional $200 leather seats of the same size and quality, I would question the markup of Buick.

for the $800 price difference in veneers, I highly doubt it is $800 worth of labor to remove old veneer on two relatively small boxes.

thanks for being the voice of reason on AC for us all, we are forever indebted to your ears.  let us know when you hear the Cirrus.

[ricardojoa]

I hate to keep beating a dead horse here, but if Buick has optional $1k leather seats and Ford has optional $200 leather seats of the same size and quality, I would question the markup of Buick.

for the $800 price difference in veneers, I highly doubt it is $800 worth of labor to remove old veneer on two relatively small boxes.

thanks for being the voice of reason on AC for us all, we are forever indebted to your ears.  let us know when you hear the Cirrus.

I think it would be a good idea if you can ask Ryan how much he charge to custom veneer the breeze instead. It is better compare to selah  that way. Dont forget full front baffle veneer.

[wilsynet]

I think it is generally unfair to compare two manufacturers who have radically different business models and business maturity.

I really like what Ryan is doing with Vapor, but Vapor is very early yet.  The wait time for a Vapor Cirrus is between 4-7 months.  Consistent, predictable delivery is not a hallmark of a startup.

Contrast that with Selah who is able to ship you a standard model Tempesta in 4-5 weeks.

The Evolution Acoustics MMMicroOne has also been declared the best monitors this side of $20,000.  But it has been plagued by production delays and they don't have anything more than prototypes they've sent to a handful of reviewers and what they've taken to shows.  It's been more than a year since they announced the MMMicroOne, and they're now saying it'll ship in April, about 18 months later (?).  As far as I'm concerned, the MMMicroOne is vapor ware.  That they may be the best pair of monitors ever built, well, it doesn't count.  Not if you can't ship.

Selah will ship you a production ready speaker quickly.  Vapor will ship you a speaker customized to your exacting standards.  That Vapor will charge you less for a custom veneer is not a surprise since the whole effort is custom.  Compared to Selah who will charge you less for high volume version and will accommodate a custom veneer for a larger upcharge.

Jonbee hasn't heard the Cirrus.  Not many people have.  They've heard it in shows, sure, but how many owners are out there?  No disrespect to Ryan.  I would like to give him my business one day and I hope he'll take my money despite how my comments might be interpreted negatively.

If Ryan can scale out his business and maintain quality and the low prices he has currently, well, I hope he's able to do it.  If he's going to stay focused on small boutique builds, that's OK too, there's a market for that.  Presumably the market that is willing to wait longer for more custom product.

But look, it's a free country.  If the buyer wants to buy a Cirrus, they should go ahead and do so.  We've already laid out the reasons why the up charge is higher.

[JLM]

Some speaker manufacturers just don't want to build cabinets, so they set a discouraging high price for extras.  Its a free country, take it or leave it.

Oh, just to throw another vendor into the ring (the thread title does say "etc." right?), how about Aether Audio?

[wilsynet]

for the $800 price difference in veneers, I highly doubt it is $800 worth of labor to remove old veneer on two relatively small boxes.

The price of the standard veneer is already built into the standard enclosure.  You have to pay for it no matter what.

So does it cost $300 in materials for the custom veneer?  Probably.  So that leaves $500 left to account for.

Let's suppose it takes 4 hours to strip the standard veneer, and another 4 hours to apply the custom veneer.  That's 8 hours of labor.  Let's say you pay someone $30 / hour to do that.  That comes out to $240.  Now add your markup and you're getting pretty close to $500.  You *have* to charge a markup, because you have to provide space, tooling, etc.  There are operational costs.

I'm not a woodworker, but I would suspect that $30 / hour for a professional woodworker would be quite low.  And if there isn't enough work to employ someone full time, then you're going to have to pay on demand contract rates.

But I'm only speculating.

[wilsynet]

Aether Audio, Timepiece Mini MKIV

Painted with Satin Finish: $2990
Painted with mirror gloss: $3990
Domestic Hardwood Satin Finish: $3490
Domestic Hardwood mirror gloss: $4490

So if you want a gloss finish instead of a satin finish, it's $1000 more.

[roscoeiii]

Hopefully we can get off the veneer merry-go-round sometime soon. One company charges one amount, another charges as different amount. Factor that into your buying decision as one more factor.

Just like you would factor in the appeal of an off-the-shelf PE enclosure vs. a modded off-the-shelf enclosure vs. a custom enclosure.

We certainly shouldn't deny the appeal of aesthetics in addition to the appeal of sound quality, and everyone will have a different balance of priorities. For me, I went with the SP Mini over the Aether Spirit because of the looks of the Minis' custom wood waveguides, which appealed more than the more off-the-shelf Spirit cabinets, even though the Spirits were reported to have better bass. I am fine with that decision, and am lovingly gazing at the Minis. Do I have a problem with someone choosing the Spirits because of different audio/aesthetic priorities? Nope.

The custom veneer discussion=

[vortrex]

those numbers make some sense.  I guess Vapor is eating the cost and losing $ on orders with upgraded veneer, there's no way they could do it based off what you are mentioning.  who knows, maybe the Vapor site is incorrect or not worded properly and it is $200 labor + the cost of materials to get custom veneer?

[Tyson]

the enclosures from PE are like $200 retail, which means they are probably made for less than half that cost so there is profit being made for everyone involved.  if indeed all the $ for the Selah custom veneer is because of the time/effort to strip the old off, then why not just build cabinets from scratch for far less?  does anyone even know for sure of the standard veneer is being removed?  maybe he is just veneering over the existing or getting boxes already which are bare.

I was going to reply, but if you cannot understand the difference between mass made cabinets in standard finishes built in the far east vs. custom cabinets made in the US, then I can't really think of anything else to say....

[vortrex]

Aether Audio, Timepiece Mini MKIV

Painted with Satin Finish: $2990
Painted with mirror gloss: $3990
Domestic Hardwood Satin Finish: $3490
Domestic Hardwood mirror gloss: $4490

So if you want a gloss finish instead of a satin finish, it's $1000 more.

the $1000 is probably because it is a hand-rubbed finish.  that's actually an $1800 option from Salk for floorstanders.  it says it is extremely labor intensive.

[roscoeiii]

Aether Audio, Timepiece Mini MKIV

So if you want a gloss finish instead of a satin finish, it's $1000 more.

Yep that Aether gloss hardwood finish will cost you, it seems.

[wilsynet]

I guess Vapor is eating the cost and losing $ on orders with upgraded veneer, there's no way they could do it based off what you are mentioning.

I continue to fail to communicate this in a way that makes sense.

The custom veneer does not cost Vapor any more than the cost of materials because the labor associated with the custom veneer is the same as the labor associated with the standard veneer.

Vapor is only applying the veneer one time.  Selah needs to strip it and apply it again.

The majority of the cost of the Vapor is in the custom cabinet, the labor that goes with all of that, two drivers and cross over.  Versus the majority of cost in the Tempesta is in three drivers (not two) and the crossover.