Lessons Learned and Re-Learned

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DaveNote

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Lessons Learned and Re-Learned
« on: 30 Jan 2012, 05:34 pm »
Audio has been an interest and hobby of mine for more than 40 years, sometimes bordering on passion and mania - you know, the audiophle disease. Over the past several days, I have learned some new facts and relearned an old truism about my hobby.

Taking the advice of an AudioCircle member, I sought and found a Pioneer SX980 receiver made over 30 years ago. This member was of the view, apparently along with others, that equipment of this vintage can make particularly good headphone amplifiers. Trading an old unsed piece of equipment I was able pay about $250 for an SX980 in very good condition. And it is, in fact, excellent as a headphone amp making my Audeze LCD2 headphones sound better than the other headphone amps I had been using.

Once I had it in my sound room, where I run my PMC MB2i speakers using 7BSST2 amps, a BP26, a BDA1, and BDP1, I thought, what the hell, I'll set up a second system with the SX980 using unused Tangent TM3 bookshelf speakers. They sounded good to my ear, but needed some tuning, which I did with yet another unused piece, a Z-Systems RDQ digital equalizer, placed between the BDP and BDA. and this, too worked well.

But all this simply activated the audiophile itch in me, which is this: when I hear something good, I'm anxious to make it better.

So I bought new speakers. First, Polk Audio RTi 1A bookshelf speakers, which were rated highly by Stereophile and sounded better than the alternatives where I demoed them. Cost: $280. These speakers were better than the Tangents, and need far less equalizing.

But the itch needed more scratching, so I decided to up the ante, buying B&W 685 stand-mount speakers at $800 (Canadian price). Didn't want to spend money on stands, so I bought 24" wooden barstools - $40.

After breaking the 685s in, and placing unused Nordost Pulsar Points under them, they sound even better than the Polks with no equalizing needed.

Then, of course, I had to A-B them. Using the same sources (BDP-BDA) I compared the 685s and the SX980 with the MB2is with the 7BSST2s. Not  surprisingly, the PMCs sound quite a bit better overall; however, I belive some people who prefer a brighter and clearer upper mid range and high end just might prefer the 685/SX980. The sound between the two combinations arguably might be called different rather than better or worse.

The 685/SX980 combination cost a shade under $1100, including the bar stools (little more than the price of my LCD2s and far less than the Sennheiser HD800s I owned until recently). The MB2i/7BSST2s if bought today would cost about $35,000.

So this interesting experience confirmed a lesson I learned long ago. As you pay more for audio equipment seeking to get better sound, the performance is disproportional to the money spent. Do I regret buying my MB2is and Bryston? Absolutely not. No buyer's remose for me. It's my hobby, I enjoy the increased performance although to get it meant digging deep in my pocket.

On the other hand, this experience resulted in new lessons:

1. Vintage equipment can be quite good, and even a downright bargain.

2. Old receivers, in one odd way, are better than modern ones in this respect: They are simple to set up and easier to use. Everything is knobs and buttons, which do not require searching about for the nested menu you want. And if it is near at hand, which is required in lieu of a remote, it has a satsifying tactile feel to it, expecially in the weighted tuner knob.

3. There have been incredible improvements in small speakers. I don't have my old speakers by which to make any comparisons, but if the memory of my ageing ears is correct, these B&W 685s (and maybe even the Polks) are better than any speakers I had before getting my first PMCs (IB1). These included EPI quads, Misson 753 and 757 (?) as well as outstanding Hales Revelation IIIs.

Taken together, this has been a week full of fun, surprises, bargains, and unexpected lessons.

Dave
« Last Edit: 30 Jan 2012, 09:16 pm by DaveNote »

sfraser

Re: Lessons Learned and Re-Learned
« Reply #1 on: 30 Jan 2012, 07:08 pm »
I think that is called the law of diminishing returns. And I totally agree.

milford3

Re: Lessons Learned and Re-Learned
« Reply #2 on: 30 Jan 2012, 07:20 pm »
My brother still has this flagship receicer.  He bought it while in the US Navy in 1977.  We still listen to this receiver when I visit. 

 http://silverpioneer.netfirms.com/sx-1250.htm

Elizabeth

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Re: Lessons Learned and Re-Learned
« Reply #3 on: 30 Jan 2012, 07:41 pm »
The ratio is a log relationship.. not a linear one.
The first one dollar is the very best deal..
So a scraped together system of found stuff from garage sales, and second hand stores can really be worthwhile when it costs $100.
As the prices go up the percentages drop.
So a jump from $2,000 speakers to $5,000 speakers.. not much difference.. really.

HsvHeelFan

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Re: Lessons Learned and Re-Learned
« Reply #4 on: 30 Jan 2012, 08:19 pm »
I clipped the following from DaveNote's post:

"As you pay more for audio equipment seeking to get better sound, the performance is disproportional to the money spent."

Absolutely!  That's why I have my KEF's.  The difference between them and a 5K set of speakers wasn't really big.  The difference between the 5K set and a 10K set of speakers was even smaller.

It's clearly a diminishing returns kind of thing. 

Buy the best you can afford, based on what you like.   Let your ears be the judge.

The best money I've ever spent on audio was my Bryston 4B-ST.  It was also the only thing I changed in my system.  I replaced an Integrated Amp with a Parasound Pre/Bryston 4B-ST. 

The room, the source, the speakers were all the same, I just made the pre-amp/amp change.

One of these days, I'm going to get a Bryston pre-amp.  I just don't know when.

HsvHeelFan

DaveNote

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Re: Lessons Learned and Re-Learned
« Reply #5 on: 30 Jan 2012, 08:21 pm »
I forgot to mention that my PMC MB2i/7BSST2 combination is connected to a Torus 15, which most definitely makes the two sound all that much better. So the comparison with the B&W 685/Pioneer SC980 is all that more dramatic.

I noted the reference to the top of the old line Pioneer 1250. Major beast of its kind.

Pioneer didn't then have a 20 year warranty, but it seems that their old receivers were built to last. Mine looks and feels like it was..and remarkabley still is a top notch product.

Dave

DaveNote

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Re: Lessons Learned and Re-Learned
« Reply #6 on: 30 Jan 2012, 08:34 pm »
Buy the best you can afford, based on what you like.

Good advice. I always lusted after the BMW, which I never thought I could afford. A couple of years ago I raided my savings to buy a 335d - outrageously expensive to the point of absurdity. But I don't just like it, I love it. And I don't think much about how much I paid for it. A few months ago I bought my wife a new VW Jetta TDI. It's a nice car, but nothing like my Bimmer.

However, the difference in the price/performance gap between the two cars and my two audio systems is quite different. The performance comparison between the two audio systems is arguably marginal, at a difference of 35 times in price, while the performance difference between the two cars is significant at a difference of 3 times in price.

So, if you want to be an audiophile as opposed to a car enthusiast, the law of diminishing returns bites harder for the audiophile, IMO.

Dave

SoundGame

Re: Lessons Learned and Re-Learned
« Reply #7 on: 30 Jan 2012, 08:40 pm »
Point taken - the law of diminishing marginal return on investment, STRONGLY applies to audio equipment but priorities is what rules our need to spend.

If you're happy with good sound the B&W 685 paired with the SC980 will do it but if you are looking for full realistic dynamics, higher spl, greater transparency, moving to the higher priced system is the only way you'll get it.

The big question is whether those small increments are worth the money.  We all know that the majority of the population thinks audiophiles to be not really all there - and that may be the case - we know what we want, we can perceive the difference and we're willing to pay for it.

Dave - have you truly been ruthless in your comparision and evaluation?  Is there there actually a comparable level or accuracy in tonality, in transparency, in ultimate detail retreival, in dynamics both low and high-level etc?  I don't doubt the budget system is pleasureable to listen to but does it put the performers in your room?

JfTM

Re: Lessons Learned and Re-Learned
« Reply #8 on: 30 Jan 2012, 08:52 pm »
I have a Pioneer SX-737 that I bought new and it still sounds sweet and full; particularly with my Harbeth HL MKIIs.  And while it sounds very nice, I still prefer my Bryston/PMC EB1i's.

An interesting point is that What cost $950 in 1979 ( the SX1280) would cost $2815.41 in 2010.  At least according to http://www.westegg.com/inflation/

sfraser

Re: Lessons Learned and Re-Learned
« Reply #9 on: 30 Jan 2012, 09:01 pm »
Me thinks the results may be a bit more dramatic at 116db and above. However that may not be fair because it is above the max. SPL of the B&W's and likely  start clipping  the receiver in the process.

However at that level the MB2's and 7B's would be  just starting to flex their muscles....I love loud music, And I can just imagine what that combination would sound like! :D

DaveNote

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Re: Lessons Learned and Re-Learned
« Reply #10 on: 30 Jan 2012, 09:14 pm »
Point taken - the law of diminishing marginal return on investment, STRONGLY applies to audio equipment but priorities is what rules our need to spend.

If you're happy with good sound the B&W 685 paired with the SC980 will do it but if you are looking for full realistic dynamics, higher spl, greater transparency, moving to the higher priced system is the only way you'll get it.

The big question is whether those small increments are worth the money.  We all know that the majority of the population thinks audiophiles to be not really all there - and that may be the case - we know what we want, we can perceive the difference and we're willing to pay for it.

Dave - have you truly been ruthless in your comparision and evaluation?  Is there there actually a comparable level or accuracy in tonality, in transparency, in ultimate detail retreival, in dynamics both low and high-level etc?  I don't doubt the budget system is pleasureable to listen to but does it put the performers in your room?

SoundGame, Being one myself, I think audiophiles are completely gaga! But that's probably true of any number of different enthusiasts. I agree with you if we individually find value in the increased performance we pay for through the nose, than it's worth every penny.

Have I been ruthless in my comparison and evaluation? Short answer: No. Why? I listen in the terms you describe, that is getting the kind of sound I like. I'm not a reviewer and don't need to be. I do, of course, use terms I understand for my own kind of evaluation. The two systems are close - emphasis, to aamy ageing ears - in terms of accuracy, sound staging, and, linearity. The 685s are more forward in the mid range in vocal music, and the mid upper range is also more pronounced. Interestingly, I upgraded to my MB2is from my MB2s mostly to get a better high end, especially to improve the handling of cymbals. But in my view, the B&W tweeter is much better. Clearer with better definition. If I had my druthers, I'd love to have it on my MB2is.

That said, I believe your question about whether the performers sound as if they are in my room cuts to the chase. This is where the MB2is shine. I said in my OP that overall they are better to my ear than the 685s, and this is where the big difference is. The PMCS  and probably even more so because of the 7BSST2s are just smoother and more musical.

Dave

DaveNote

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Re: Lessons Learned and Re-Learned
« Reply #11 on: 30 Jan 2012, 09:23 pm »
Me thinks the results may be a bit more dramatic at 116db and above. However that may not be fair because it is above the max. SPL of the B&W's and likely  start clipping  the receiver in the process.

However at that level the MB2's and 7B's would be  just starting to flex their muscles....I love loud music, And I can just imagine what that combination would sound like! :D

I don't know what 116db would mean in terms of where my volume controls are set. I normally listen to my MB2is with the BP26 set at 9:00 o'clock. I've pumped it up to about 10:00. Beyond that it seems to me risks blowing not the speakers, but rather my ears. Never have clipped my amps.

Dave

SoundGame

Re: Lessons Learned and Re-Learned
« Reply #12 on: 30 Jan 2012, 09:30 pm »
Another thing to consider is that if the old receiver / amp has not been refurbished, it will not be operating to original specifications - so the comparison could be even closer.

SoundGame

Re: Lessons Learned and Re-Learned
« Reply #13 on: 30 Jan 2012, 09:39 pm »
...Interestingly, I upgraded to my MB2is from my MB2s mostly to get a better high end, especially to improve the handling of cymbals. But in my view, the B&W tweeter is much better. Clearer with better definition. If I had my druthers, I'd love to have it on my MB2is...

Dave, in response to your comments about the tweeter, the PMC Consumer Series of speakers were developed off the profession series and have the same "polite" yet detailed tweeter - which is tied to their studio heritage and the need to make them listenable over long durations.  I believe that the new Fact series and/or Twenty Series might be up your alley in terms of getting a more lively presentation.  My understanding is that they are voiced differently.  It could be also that you're partial to a more lively sounding tweeter / speaker.  Metal domes, when executed properly can give this impression.  I haven't heard the 685 but B&W has been know to have very smooth sounding tweeters.

DaveNote

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Re: Lessons Learned and Re-Learned
« Reply #14 on: 30 Jan 2012, 09:45 pm »
Another thing to consider is that if the old receiver / amp has not been refurbished, it will not be operating to original specifications - so the comparison could be even closer.

SoundGame, I bought to Pioneer at a vintage audio dealer's shop with a good reputation and does a lot of servicing. I didn't go into details, but it was my impression that they did refurbish it. In any case, they gave me a warranty. In any case, your point is well-taken.

Dave

DaveNote

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Re: Lessons Learned and Re-Learned
« Reply #15 on: 30 Jan 2012, 09:49 pm »
Dave, in response to your comments about the tweeter, the PMC Consumer Series of speakers were developed off the profession series and have the same "polite" yet detailed tweeter - which is tied to their studio heritage and the need to make them listenable over long durations.  I believe that the new Fact series and/or Twenty Series might be up your alley in terms of getting a more lively presentation.  My understanding is that they are voiced differently.  It could be also that you're partial to a more lively sounding tweeter / speaker.  Metal domes, when executed properly can give this impression.  I haven't heard the 685 but B&W has been know to have very smooth sounding tweeters.

Thanks for the suggested alternatives from PMC. Setting aside the fact that I am just about tapped out in terms of big ticket items, I now have two quite good systems in terms of my tastes - one quite lively as you put it, and the other which is warmer.

Dave

Laundrew

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Re: Lessons Learned and Re-Learned
« Reply #16 on: 31 Jan 2012, 02:16 pm »
Greetings Dave  :D

I enjoyed reading your thoughts with respect to vintage audio equipment. I could not help but to think back with fond memories to my first major receiver, a Marantz 2226B. We presently use a Marantz SR-19 for our home theatre and it does have too many "bells and whistles," do not get me wrong as I enjoy the audio quality that this receiver produces. I much more prefer a minamilistic approach, a simple, straight forward system with as few boxes as possible.

Perhaps there is a lot to said of nostalgia, but I believe a little more attention to details and perhaps pride in producing a quality product was much more evident 3 plus decades ago. I owned an early generation Phillips CD player and it served me faithfully for almost 20 years before it failed. My Achilles Heel with respect to current day consumer electronics are Blu-ray players, we only seem to have them a little over a year before they fail.

After reading your post, I could not help but "snoop" through the Vintage forum at Audio Circle. Bitten?

Mmmm... Those Marantz blue lights  :drool:

 :wink:

Be well...

DaveNote

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Re: Lessons Learned and Re-Learned
« Reply #17 on: 31 Jan 2012, 04:19 pm »
Greetings Dave  :D

I enjoyed reading your thoughts with respect to vintage audio equipment. I could not help but to think back with fond memories to my first major receiver, a Marantz 2226B. We presently use a Marantz SR-19 for our home theatre and it does have too many "bells and whistles," do not get me wrong as I enjoy the audio quality that this receiver produces. I much more prefer a minamilistic approach, a simple, straight forward system with as few boxes as possible.

Perhaps there is a lot to said of nostalgia, but I believe a little more attention to details and perhaps pride in producing a quality product was much more evident 3 plus decades ago. I owned an early generation Phillips CD player and it served me faithfully for almost 20 years before it failed. My Achilles Heel with respect to current day consumer electronics are Blu-ray players, we only seem to have them a little over a year before they fail.

After reading your post, I could not help but "snoop" through the Vintage forum at Audio Circle. Bitten?

Mmmm... Those Marantz blue lights  :drool:

 :wink:

Be well...

Hi Laundrew. I, too, enjoyed a Marantz receiver with its blue lights and tuner wheel decades ago, although I can't recall the model number, or where, why and how I gave it up. I thought it was terrific, but as my OP shows, being bitten, as you put it, by Audiophiliomania I kept moving onwards, and what looked like upwards at the time. I think many of us forgot how good the old stuff was.

I'm in no way a technical person, but I understand that after the 80s manufacturers turned to newer kinds of circuitry which brought advantages, but ended up losing some of the benefits of the old circuitry. Does anyone have an explanation about this change for lay people like me?

BTW, I believe my B&W 685 speakers are really breaking in now, and are getting better and better.

Has anyone else on this circle used these speakers, which sound so unexpectedly good to me? If you have, what do you think of them?

Dave

HsvHeelFan

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Re: Lessons Learned and Re-Learned
« Reply #18 on: 31 Jan 2012, 08:16 pm »
I did some digging around and found what I think was the first system I ever used.  It was a Heathkit A181 Mono Integrated Amp and the Heathkit SS1 Speaker system.

http://www.heathkit-museum.com/hifi/hvmaa-161.shtml

http://www.heathkit-museum.com/hifi/hvmss-1.shtml

Next was a Sansui 4000:

http://www.classicaudio.com/value/san/4000.html

followed by a Pioneer SX-750 receiver.

http://silverpioneer.netfirms.com/700_series_receivers.htm

Next up, was  Yamaha A-500 Integrated Amp:

http://www.canuckaudiomart.com/details/112969-yamaha_a500_natural_sound_integrated_amplifier/

It's what died and led me on the search that took me to Bryston.

I auditioned an Adcom GFA555,  A Parasound HCA1500 and a 4B Bryston Thx rated (I think this was a fairly late 4B that I borrowed from a friend).

There was no comparison, the Bryston was the clear winner (and it wasn't even close).

I bought my 4B-ST in Franklin Tennessee.

Speakers that I've owned were Infinity bookshelf speakers (small 2-ways) with the Sansui and  the Pioneer.  When I bought the Yamaha Integrated, I also bought Yamaha NS-1000 Studio Monitors.  The Mrs didn't like their big footprint, so I changed to the KEF Q-70's in 1995.  I added the Velodyne 15 in sub in early 2001 and bought the Bryston the 3rd weekend in September of 2001.

HsvHeelFan

redbook

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Re: Lessons Learned and Re-Learned
« Reply #19 on: 31 Jan 2012, 08:33 pm »
   Great to hear you are well pleased with venerable 4B ST. Mine is still pleasantly pleasing me and I would be very reluctant to replace it at this time for the $5000.current SST2 version . I most likely will, but right now the difference gained doesn't fit my budget parameters.  :thumb: