[Yomaha]

Hello all,

I imagine this is a kindergarten level question, but I've had a hard time finding a clear explanation of the difference between a preamp and an integrated amp.  The more I read the more it seems they do the same thing. 

I have a very amatuer setup currently, and would like to think about making some modest ($1-3k) upgrades in pre-amp/integrated department, so I've been reading this site to educate myself for the last month or so.  I have a preference for tubes.

Thanks,

Yomaha

[neekomax]

A preamp is a component that serves to take one or more signals from a source (such as a CD player or computer), and give the user control over volume and selection of source. A preamp can also include basic signal processing, such as a tube buffer, which 'warms' the signal, or other functions. It then passes the signal to the amplifier, which amplifies the live level signal to drive the speakers.

An integrated amplifier includes the preamp and amplifier functions in one single device.

*Some integrated amps can also serve as preamps (if they have a 'preamp out' output) if the user wishes, for example, to use a different amp, and retain the preamp functions of the integrated (volume, source selection, remote control, etc.). This is the case in my setup, where I use a Peachtree Audio Decco (an integrated) as preamp for its many inputs, volume control, and remote control capabilities. I use its preamp out output to connect my amp, an Acurus DIA-100 (also an integrated, actually), which gives me a better amp stage than the Decco has.   

[ctviggen]

A rule of thumb is that preamp + amp is usually better (and more expensive) than integrated amp.  However, I had a Creek integrated that I thought was great.

[Ericus Rex]

Just to elaborate on what Neekomax said; preamps aren't amplified.  You'd need a seperate power amp.  Integrateds are amplified.

[JLM]

Your budget puts you in a nice wheelhouse.

If you're interested in tubes, common wisdom says to buy a tube preamp and a solid state power amp (or an integrated with those sections).  That way you get the image palpability of tubes and the bass control of solid state.  Good designs blur these distinctions though.  Another place to add tubes in the system is in the DAC, although with the extremely small signals tubes (due to their inherit noise) is not usually recommended in phono pre-amps.

Read reviews, consider synergy between pre/power as well as overall system synergy, and above all audition (at home, with everything together is best).  Size the amps to provide plenty of power to the speakers (if the recommended watts is stated as something like 30-200, go for 150-300).  This will provide a commanding grip on the speakers and so more sonic resolution.

[Delta Wave]

Another plus for a separate amp & preamp setup is not having a shared power supply as you may have with some integrated amps. Even better would be a true dual-mono design with a power supply for each channel which would give you better channel separation. The latter is especially good if you're going to have a good vinyl setup.

[Yomaha]

Ok - those explanations really clear things up!  So I cannot use a preamplifier by itself, but the integrated could serve as a preamp for the selector stage if it has a preamp out.

Any recommendations on good tube integrateds?  Any specific older model integrateds ((McIntosh?) that would be worth getting of of ebay and restoring?

[sebrof]

This may not be necessary since it's been explained already, but I always answer by starting with a receiver since most everyone is familiar.
A receiver is basically several components in one box:
Preamplifier to select the source (Radio, CD Player, Turntable, etc.) and control volume. Often has tone controls.
Amplifier to amplify the signal and send to the speakers
Tuner to get your favorite radio stations
Sometimes - Headphone amp so you can listen when your kids are asleep
Sometimes - Phono amp so you can go all nostalgic and play records

You can get all of the above listed components in separate boxes.
If you get the preamp and amp in one box you have an integrated. Many integrateds have phono and/or headphone as well.

[JLM]

Pre-amp outputs in an integrated amp add flexibility:  allows you to replace the power amp section (many note worthy integrates skimp on the power section to put more quality in the pre section and encourage this practice);  allows you to add another component in the chain (like room equalization); and in some it may act as a low level output for powered a subwoofer (the power section would still drive the other speakers).

Can't recommend gear until we know your speakers, room size/setup, musical genres, audio tastes, and tolerance for used/tube rolling (swapping).

[Quiet Earth]

... So I cannot use a preamplifier by itself, but the integrated could serve as a preamp for the selector stage if it has a preamp out?

I have a funny feeling that things have not really been cleared up for you. Why would you want to buy an integrated amplifier just to use it as a pre amp? Maybe you should explain a little bit more what you are trying to achieve so you can get better advice.

There is something else that has not been mentioned to you. Many (not all) integrated amplifiers are nothing more than a sensitive power amplifier hooked up to a passive input selector and volume control. There is no gain or "pre-amp" involved so the "line out" may be subject to the same issues that a passive volume control center has. This may or may not work well for you.

[Letitroll98]

The better question is why after eight posts in reply is the issue more cloudy than at the beginning.     Kidding of course, for the most part, but you gotta love audiophiles.   

[Delta Wave]

Anyone here good at making a flow chart? 

[Elizabeth]

For a new person, do NOT buy an item you have to have repaired, or refurbished. You are wasting money on the repair person.
Only IF you already had a famous/great item you really REALLY wanted to use, THEN get it fixed.
Common broken down stuff is really a total waste for someone who cannot do thier own repair.

Aside from that, one advantage of an integrated is less cables. And you know the parts are designed for each other.
IF you buy two different brands of preamp and amplifier, then not only do you need cables between them, they also may not be a good match for each other.
I would suggest a Peachtree Decco integrated. But not knowing the speakers,??

[wilsynet]

I'm going to summarize.  In terms of a general ontology, the major, historical components of an audio system are:

Source.  Examples include tuners, CD players, phono stages, DACs.

Preamplifier.  These usually perform the function of input switching, impedance buffering, and volume control.  Volume control can either be attenuation or gain.  In the case of an active preamplifier, impedance buffering and gain is applied to the source level signal, and then attenuated.

Amplifier.  Takes the low level signal from a preamplifier and amplifies appropriately for speakers.

Speakers.  A speaker usually requires an amplifier.  But if a speaker is categorized as an "active speaker", then it has an amplifier built in.  Most speakers are not active speakers.

Integrated amplifier.  Preamplifier and amplifier enclosed in the same unit.  Sometimes integrates are simply amplifiers with an attenuator, sometimes they're truly a preamplifier gain stage plus an amplifier.

Receiver.  An integrated plus a tuner.

HT Processor.  A preamplifier which includes home theatre specific processing appropriate for multi-channel.

Multi-channel amplifier.  An amplifier that usually has support for 5 channels, 6 channels and 7 channels rather than classic 2-channel stereo.

AV Receiver.  A HT processor plus integrated multi-channel amplifier.  Usually also has a FM/AM tuner section.

The industry has some amount of overlap.  For example:

Sometimes integrated amplifiers have preamplifier outputs so that the integrated can be used as a preamplifier, thereby skipping the amplifier section.  A number of integrated amplifiers have such an option, but it is just as common to not have such an option.

Preamplifiers may have phono sections.  That is, a phono stage that brings the minuscule voltage produced by a phono cartridge to a more common 1V or 2V signal.  The Modwright LS-100 is a preamplifier with a phono stage option.

Integrated amplifiers and receivers may also include a phono stage.  The LFD Zero Mark III is an integrated with a phono option, as are integrated amplifiers from Accuphase and Luxman.

DACs sometimes have volume controls (although usually as a passive attenuator only function).  Some DACs now advertise themselves as also performing the preamp function and have as a matter of convenience some analog inputs and input selection capability.  An example is the Benchmark DAC/Pre.  I have not looked at these very carefully, but I expect volume attenuation is performed, but not gain.

Some integrated amplifiers have a built-in DAC.  The Peachtree is such an example.

Some preamplifiers have a built-in DAC.  The Red Wine Isabella is one.

Buffers only perform impedance buffering.  Although the Burson Buffer also applies 6dB of gain.  Some buffers are targeted toward adding tube euphony to a signal while others are merely striving for better impedance matching.

More expensive AV Receivers often have a preamp output option, but budget units often do not.

There is a bunch to be written about attenuators and passives or zero gain preamplifiers.  Like those products by Music First, Lightspeed, Warpspeed, Dodd and Horn Shoppe.  Deserves its own post.

Yeah, I know, now clear as mud, right?  It's a dizzying array of options out there based on historical convention and new ways of thinking about how to optimize the audio chain in terms of convenience, packaging, marketing, price, and sound quality.

Oh, we haven't even talked about selection criteria.  That's a different post altogether.

[JLM]

Careful or we'll pet this new puppy to death.   

[Ericus Rex]

If you're looking for all tube (not hybrid) I'd recommend the Rogue Audio Tempest (any iteration) integrated.  You can find them with remote, phono, headphone for around $1,200 used, sometimes less but usually without the remote and phono sections.  This amp, plus some good floorstanders like Meadowlark Shearwater hotrods (usually around $900 used) and a Marantz SA-8004 SACD player will get you kick-butt sound for well under $3k.

[Yomaha]

Thanks to generous responses here on the board!!!

I have a funny feeling that things have not really been cleared up for you. Why would you want to buy an integrated amplifier just to use it as a pre amp? Maybe you should explain a little bit more what you are trying to achieve so you can get better advice.

There is something else that has not been mentioned to you. Many (not all) integrated amplifiers are nothing more than a sensitive power amplifier hooked up to a passive input selector and volume control. There is no gain or "pre-amp" involved so the "line out" may be subject to the same issues that a passive volume control center has. This may or may not work well for you.

Hi Quiet Earth,

I was just making sure I understood how things 'could' be setup, ie, if I were to get an integrated, then wanted to get a separate power amp later down the line, I could do that, using the integrated as the preamp as long as the integrated had a preamp out - correct?


What I'm trying to accomplish:
I just discovered vinyl about 4 years ago, and I have been addicted ever since, largely re-buying my music collection just so I could hear it on vinyl.  I have always been an audio fanatic, but it's just now that I have the means to start building a respectable system.  I am 32, and I mainly like rock, ex: Black Rebel Motorcycle Club, Stones, The Black Angles, Spoon (Gimme Fiction) but I have a spot for Allen Toussaint, random latin jazz, occasionally country, classical, and a touch of electronic music.  Any music with a soul works for me - I don't discriminate.

I really love a nice round & full, low end. I love hearing and feeling a very low and fuzzed-out bass or keyboard.  I've played guitar all my life, but I developed a fascination with the bass guitar over the years.  I love being able to pick it out and hear its nuances on a record.  All my guitar equipment is now tube and I prefer that warmth.  I also enjoy a broad sound stage with excellent clarity and separation of the instruments. 

Current setup:
Source: I have a black Music Hall mmf-2.2 that I purchased about 3 months ago. 
Speakers:[/b] Polk S6's (purchased about 20 years ago) and a HSU VTF-3 sub
Room: 20x18 / carpet floors / no sound design / stereo is center piece w/ various marshall & fender amps along the wall.  Room is just used for listening, playing and recording.
Receiver: Older Onkyo (can't remember model #)
Headphones: Grado sr125
etc: I have some powered DynAudios that I use on my Protools setup that sound quite good, but since they connect via XLR, I've never used them with the Music Hall/Onkyo.

I like the sound of my little rig, but I know it can be better, and I'm ready to start making my way to the next level. 

[Quiet Earth]

I was just making sure I understood how things 'could' be setup, ie, if I were to get an integrated, then wanted to get a separate power amp later down the line, I could do that, using the integrated as the preamp as long as the integrated had a preamp out - correct?

Ah,,,,,, yeah, gotcha then. Yes, you are correct. You could do that. But I think I would rather wait and save up for a really nice integrated (or amp preamp combo) instead of getting something for the short run to upgrade later. But it's your call.

Also, if you still like your Onkyo driving your Polks but want to improve its phono section, you could always buy a nice stand alone phono stage to use with it, and then later on when you get an integrated (or amp/preamp) you can keep using your nice phono stage. This will also open up your choices for integrateds and pre amps which only have line inputs (no phono).

Whew, that was a mouthful. 

[JLM]

A "nice round & full low end" sounds like lots of women I know.   

Seriously, that screams to me of vintage (70's) speakers and classic tube power amps.

Nowadays what old farts like me remember today's sound being more like what used to be called the "European sound" (tight, comparatively constipated bass) that stays north of 50 Hz (polite small apartment setups).

[wilsynet]

I was just making sure I understood how things 'could' be setup, ie, if I were to get an integrated, then wanted to get a separate power amp later down the line, I could do that, using the integrated as the preamp as long as the integrated had a preamp out - correct?

That's correct, but it's not usually how people do things.  All other things being equal, an integrated amplifier is typically not as good as a preamplifier + amplifier combination.  When designing a one box solution, compromises usually need to be made to co-locate functions within the same box, including sharing the power supplies, noise created by one function impacting another function.

Also, a lot of people buy used today.  Audiogon is a great place for that.  So you buy a used integrated from Audiogon, and when you decide you want to move to separates, you sell the integrated on Audiogon for maybe a bit less or for the same price that you had purchased the integrated to begin with.

What's your budget?  Not what would you spend today, but what can you imagine yourself spending over the next year or two when you're finally done?  There may be a way to structure the spend over time so that you're getting maximum value at all phases.

To be honest, I'd start with the speakers.  That will most likely make the most difference in your system.  A great pair of speakers with a value conscious integrated and potentially a separate phono stage will likely deliver more value to you.  Your speaker selection will inform and let you optimize your selection of an amplifier (integrated or otherwise).  For example, high efficiency speakers would let you spend more money on sound quality and less money on raw power.

Here's where my biases will come into play.  A pair of Zu Soul Superfly speakers are available used for $1600 on Audiogon.  Similarly a pair of Omega MaxHemp's are on Audiogon right now for $1325.  The Tekton Lore weighs in new at $995.