[josh358]

Josh, aside situations where the lower cost speaker is better than the more expensive (or it sounds better because the more expensive one is not set properly and/or not driven with the right electronics), I believe that, in many instances, the outcome you describe is the result of cognitive disonance. As you may know, in a simplified view, cognitive dissonance is when one is biased towards a certain decision even though other factors favour an alternative.

It is a way of making decisions or chosing situations when there is a conflict (disonance) of values and/or beliefs. To quote Wikipedia: "The theory of cognitive dissonance in social psychology proposes that people have a motivational drive to reduce dissonance by altering existing cognitions, adding new ones to create a consistent belief system, or alternatively by reducing the importance of any one of the dissonant elements." So, within the context of your quoted post, if one is stingy or budget is a constraint, we convince ourselves that a cheaper component/model is better than a more expensive one when that is not necessarily the case. Or, going even farther, declare it  the best there is, whether or not one has auditioned a statistical representative number of alternatives. Or, conversely, if "prestige" is important, we would stick to the expensive model rejecting any bona-fide "gigant killer" in the proximity.

Of course, "cognitive disonance" is clearly different from "conscious compromise". Aside of differences in hearing acuity or sonic tastes/preferences, these two psycological approaches, most certainly, could explain most of the arguments in audiophile forums.

Mario

There have actually been some interesting experiments that demonstrate that effect in audio, though I'm not sure they'd call it cognitive dissonance, rather confirmation bias. In one, Harman researchers had panels rate four different speakers for relative quality in two different listening sessions. One was blind -- the panelists couldn't see the speakers they were rating -- the other sighted. It turned out that in the sighted experiment, panelists rated a speaker with a cheap-looking case significantly lower relative to the others than they did when they couldn't see it. This was true of expert listeners as well, audio engineers who were convinced that they were beyond such things.

So I agree, it's a real phenomenon, and I always wonder when I read a glowing review of an expensive component whether the component is actually that good, or whether the reviewer has been influenced by his expectations.

At the same time, I'm reluctant to ascribe the results of any individual's subjective audition to bias or wishful thinking. We just can't know. In some of these cases, I know that the person really wanted to get the more expensive speaker, and was set to, but then was disappointed to discover that the other one sounded better. I think there may even have been one such case here on the Circle a while back, or maybe it was the Audio Asylum.

I'm a lot harder on myself, I don't trust myself to be unbiased since none of us are, so I always do the best I can to find confirmation for my judgments. But sometimes it just isn't possible. Wendell is a big fan of blind testing. He turns out the lights and you A/B with a remote control. It's kind of hard for us to do that, unfortunately.

[painted_klown]

Hello everyone. New guy here, this is my first post. I came over here from the Emotiva lounge.

I have always had a mild fascination with Magnepan speakers since I first got onto hi-hi audio, about 3 years ago. I have read a lot of great things about them, and have heard a lot of positive feedback regarding Peter Gunn's Magnestand modification.

Well, over on the lounge, a forum member has recently purchased a new pair of 1.7s and thus, sparked a new Magnepan thread that discusses Ncore amps, PGs mod, and just about anything else that can be remotely linked to Magnepan. 

With all of the chatter, I decided it was finally time to give Magnepan an honest listen and headed to a local dealer. I posted a full "review" of what I heard on the lounge (Emotiva Audio forum), and discovered that it had been pasted to this forum as well. That, along with e-mails with Peter Gunn, led me here.

Anyway, I decided to go ahead and order a set of MMGs directly from Magnepan on Thursday (08/16/12). According to the tracking info sent to me, they should be delivered to me on Monday 08/20/12).

Needless to say, I am super excited to get these in and begin doing a lot of serious listening. At this time, my intention is to listen to them stock for a while, and then send them off to PG for his mod.

To be quite honest, I haven't been this excited about new gear since I bought my amps. I have a feeling that after living with planar sound, that I too will become "addicted" and that nothing else will do. 

Glad to join the community, and I hope that I can contribute and help out, just as much as I can learn.

-Dave

[josh358]

Hi Dave, and welcome. The MMG's are wonderful speakers, I had a pair for several years. They do require some break in time, the midrange will open up and the bass will get deeper as you play them. Also, one of the things you'll find about planars is that they're very sensitive to room placement! I've always found that fun, you get to listen to music while you move your speakers around, but you'll find that position makes a big difference and that eventually you'll find a spot that clicks and they're as good as they'll ever be.

[Rclark]

 Hey PK, welcome! (I'm gonna bring as many of you guys with me as I can    ) Klinemj is mkcarnut, you'll see him over in the Ncore forum, I guess he has some neat cases planned.

[painted_klown]

josh358,

Thank you for the welcome. I look forward to receiving my MMGs and really getting to know thier sound inside and out.

I am glad you brought up the subject of break in with magnepan speakers. I know there is always a bit of debate regarding the merits of break in with audio components, although it seems to be the general consensus that traditional speakers do require some type of break in while the suspension becomes more complaint and things.

One thing I was unsure about is weather or not Magnepans require a break in period. It is a topic that I have never really seen brought up.

How long of a break in period do all of you feel that Magnepans require?
During the break in period, should I be careful with the volume control?

I apologize for the "noob" questions, but I am a new to planar speakers, and the subject doesn't get brought up much.

RClark, thanks for all of your advice thus far. You have been an invaluable source of information for me during the transistion from box speakers to the Maggies. I think this forum will be another great tool for learning about all things Magnepan, as well as getting the detailed input regarding PGs mod.
 

[medium jim]

Usually, a couple hundred hours to break-in Maggie's.  You can play them loud during the break-in period.  You will notice that things will continue to get better, bigger bass, more coherent and more relaxed. 

Another thing to consider is their placement...the further you can get them into the room and off the walls the better.  Then figure out the toe-in.

Once they have broken-in and they are in their sweet spots, you may like them as they are.  Spend the $2100.00 or so (what it costs to have them Gunned) on better amps, subs or room treatments, as this will have more of a positive result in the performance of your system IMHO.

Jim

[painted_klown]

Medium Jim,

Thank you for the information.

Currently, I have a pair of Emotiva XPA-1 mono blocks. They are rated at 500w into 8 ohms, and 1000w into 4 ohms. They are also a fully balanced (from input to output) differential design and I think they should serve me fairly well.

At the moment I do not have a balanced source component, nor a fully balanced pre-amp. But I would like to get the Oppo BDP-95 (also considering Emotiva ERC-2) and the upcoming Emotiva XSP-1 to rectify those issues.

For subs, I currently have dual Emotiva Ultra 12s. I know these aren't the "be all, end all" for low frequency reproduction, but in the future I would like to get a couple of Rythmik Audio subs to mate with them. Unless, of course, I can find a lower cost alternative that would work equally well. 

It's all about time and money in this hobby...

EDIT: Typo

[medium jim]

Medium Jim,

Thank you for the information.

Currently, I have a pair of Emotiva XPA-1 mono blocks. They are rated at 500w into 8 ohms, and 1000w into 4 ohms. They are also a fully balanced (from input to output) differential design and I think they should serve me fairly well.

At the moment I do not have a balanced source component, nor a fully balanced pre-amp. But I would like to get the Oppo BDP-95 (also considering Emotiva ERC-2) and the upcoming Emotiva XSP-1 to rectify those issues.

For subs, I currently have dual Emotiva Ultra 12s. I know these aren't the "be all, end all" for low frequency reproduction, but in the future I would like to get a couple of Rythmik Audio subs to mate with them. Unless, of course, I can find a lower cost alternative that would work equally well. 

It's all about time and money in thsi hobby...

I would go for the oppo95 as it is the best bang for the buck hands down.  I believe Josh has the same amps you have and could give you some useful information about them.

There is a Bass Circle where subs are discussed by some guys who are anal about bass. As well, a circle dedicated to room treatments, but I would stay in the Planar Circle for such info as Magnepan's radiate and fill the room with energy like no other speaker.

The best advice is to follow your own ears, at the end of the day you only have to please them!

Jim

[dawnrazor]

Usually, a couple hundred hours to break-in Maggie's.  You can play them loud during the break-in period.  You will notice that things will continue to get better, bigger bass, more coherent and more relaxed. 

Another thing to consider is their placement...the further you can get them into the room and off the walls the better.  Then figure out the toe-in.

Once they have broken-in and they are in their sweet spots, you may like them as they are.  Spend the $2100.00 or so (what it costs to have them Gunned) on better amps, subs or room treatments, as this will have more of a positive result in the performance of your system IMHO.

Jim

Well said MJ.  I agree that 2.1k is alot.  You could get extra amps to biamp or a better source.  Sure I am a big fan of modding the mags but if you have any kind of diy skill you can get results for far less. 

[SteveFord]

Or if your room allows it, bigger Magnepans!
It is possible to get a little too carried away, though.  I believe that Josh uses his Tympanis as full body headphones...

[medium jim]

Well said MJ.  I agree that 2.1k is alot.  You could get extra amps to biamp or a better source.  Sure I am a big fan of modding the mags but if you have any kind of diy skill you can get results for far less.

DR:

Like your full Razor mod for MMG's for instance.

Jim

[dawnrazor]

DR:

Like your full Razor mod for MMG's for instance.

Jim

Yep or Daveys PLLXO and frame recipe.

I have even heard that Davey has a version of PLLXO that mimics the series  crossover response.

Sure not everyone is a DIYer so sending it off to be modded might be the best.  But having started with basic knowledge if I can transform the mmgs pretty much anyone can!!!!

[medium jim]

Yep or Daveys PLLXO and frame recipe.

I have even heard that Davey has a version of PLLXO that mimics the series  crossover response.

Sure not everyone is a DIYer so sending it off to be modded might be the best.  But having started with basic knowledge if I can transform the mmgs pretty much anyone can!!!!

And there those audacious enough (like me) who like them stock.  Okay, I do like them with better caps..

There is no wrong way to enjoy your Maggie's, even the Josh Tympani Headphone set-up!  I would be remiss if I didn't mention AndyR's Frankenpan's...they have to be good as they have 2.5 bass panels!

Jim

[dawnrazor]

And there those audacious enough (like me) who like them stock.  Okay, I do like them with better caps..

There is no wrong way to enjoy your Maggie's, even the Josh Tympani Headphone set-up!  I would be remiss if I didn't mention AndyR's Frankenpan's...they have to be good as they have 2.5 bass panels!

Jim

Its a great point about stock.  I know of one audiophile who went back to stock after doing the pg mod himself.  Having done some things to the mmgs I can tell you that simply put they are a great sounding speaker and probably will sound great with a myriad of mods and tweaks.  The key is to figure out what YOU like.

And FWIW "headphone" setups can be awesome in the right room.  There are advantages to nearfield.

[SteveFord]

I was just kidding about Josh, I always picture him having to go into the room sideways between the speakers to get into a chair.

[medium jim]

I was just kidding about Josh, I always picture him having to go into the room sideways between the speakers to get into a chair.

Steve, Josh is definately listening Near Field!

Jim

[painted_klown]

Interesting comments here guys. I always like to read various opinions on all subjects audio. 

Some of you may have read the review I posted regarding my experience at the local Magnepan dealer, as it was pasted and linked to this thread, shortly before I discoverd this forum (it was actually because of that happening, that led me here).

As you can see I have zero hands on experience with Magnepan, and my thoughts were purely based on what I heard, as I had no way to form any pre-conceived notions regarding the Magnepan sound, and how it was altered with the newer X.7 series of speakers.

Getting new speakers is a fun and exciting thing in this hobby IMO and my MMGs are set to be delivered tomorrow (08/20/12).   

Once I have had a bit of time to become familiar with their sound, I will type up a small review to really get into what I find their strengths and weaknesses to be. I will try to be as objective as possible, and will give an honest assessment of my findings.

In the mean time, I will be lurking around this forum and reading/learning what I can.

I have already read some interesting theories about maggie placement, and if I understand correctly, a good starting point is to pull the Maggies away from the front wall 3 feet, and then place your seating so that your head is three feet in from the back wall. Is that correct?

Also, when I demoed these, and the 1.7s the dealer had placed the Maggies with the tweeter on the inside. That made sense to me as I assumed it would cut down on high frequency interaction with the side walls, however I seem to see that a lot of users are opting to place them with the tweeters out. Any thoughts guys?

And finally, I think I am going to run the stock MMGs with no subwoofer for a bit to get myself acclimated with their sound, as well as be able to accurately hear what they are doing, without a subwoofer "masking" things with it's own sound.

Just thinking out loud a bit here...

[SteveFord]

If you can get 4-5 feet out from the front wall, so much the better.
Tweeters in or out something you'll have to decide upon for yourself. 
I do the 1.7s and 3.7s tweeter in and then tweeter out on MMGs for what it's worth.
They'll take a bit to break in so be prepared - when mine showed up many years ago I looked at my wife and we both said, "We can return them!". 
I hung my MMGs up in the air so I can walk around and the sound won't change so much.
Have fun.

[medium jim]

If you like bass, the MMG's will be a bit shy due to the physical limitations of their size.  What Steve said, it will take several months before they truly open up and sound their best. 

The key thing about room placement is that your ears are in the middle of the panels height wise to assure better instrument placement in the soundstage.

I have to dismiss the review you wrote as the 1.7's were paired with a mid-fi receiver...The 1.7's would have benefited from better amplification...and possibly weren't yet broken in.  The 1.7's are winner's of the Golden Ear in the most recent TAS and are amazing speakers.   This is not to diminish the MMG's which stand on their own two feet. 

Welcome to the Maggie Family!

Jim

[josh358]

My Tympanis aren't giant headphones, they're giant Mini Maggies! Since I plan to move my computing activities into the listening room rather than bring the listening to my computer -- this after I discovered how pleasant it was to browse the web on the video projector while listening to the MMG's (not very economical or environmentally responsible, though, since you're burning the bulb).

Painted Klown, I see I came a bit late to the party but I agree with Kevin's take on burn-in. This isn't a controversial phenomenon, Magnepan recommends it in the manual and it produces a measurable improvement in low frequency extension. It's apparently caused by thermal cycling. But if my experience is any guide, you'll notice a rapid improvement in the clarity of the midrange and the ability to play at high levels, when I got my MMG's the midrange sounded kind of constipated at high levels on the first day.

Agree you should take some time to let them burn in and get used to them/experiment with positioning before you do any mods. That will give you a baseline to judge their success. One mod that I and others have found makes a huge difference with the MMG's is to raise them up vertically and get them off the floor. The imaging gets much better but you lose some bass so have to have subs. Tweeters in/out is something you have to try for yourself, since results vary from room to room. Some people also prefer to listen from the back -- when I tried it, it made a slightly more spacious image, but had an adverse effect on the top octave frequency response, so you have to try it yourself. But again, I'd put the mods off until they've burned in and you have them where you want them.