[Peter Gunn]

To clarify my earlier comment, as it was a poor choice of word, this is what I meant.

If you take 2 identical drivers (it can even be multiple drivers, bass, mid tweeter etc.. so long as they are identical) but you build them into very different cabinets, with different porting, venting, stuffing, size etc.. and you stick different XO's on them with different parts, the net result is they will sound nothing alike. These side attributes will have colored the inherent driver sound.

If we build them in identical enclosures with identical parts amazingly they will sound identical.

If we take different drivers however and build them in identical ways (and as neutral a way as possible) this would provide a view into the actual capabilities of each driver because they will sound different. At this point we would only be comparing the inherent ability of the drivers, nothing else, no colorations.

We are into hi-fi, fi short for fidelity and fidelity meaning faithfulness. We want the stereo to be true or faithful to the original. However the first example shows coloration is not only possible, it is often designed in. Sometimes well, sometimes not. If the lack of color is fidelity, because it's true, then what is color or untrue? I used the word fraud, which means to not get what was expected. Since it has criminal overtones (these days anyway) it was a bad choice. I suppose I could have used infidelity, but with my luck someone would get mad that I called the 1.7 an infidel. Now that my intent is understood, the rest of you choose a word you'd prefer to use and tell me and I'll hapilly use it.

Anyway, it's my opinion this is the case because I've removed the 1.6 and 1.7 drivers and taken them down to basics. I've installed them in identical and neutral systems that should favor neither and what I heard told me the 1.6 driver is superior.

The review Mr Clark posted said the stock 1.7 is incorrectly colored and it has serious bass issues. That's all I ever said. It's good to know there is still a chance I'm not totally mad. (OK, it's a small one but I'll take it)

That said it is possible someone could simply prefer the infidelity to the fidelity anyway.  In this case with this speaker, I do not.

Many thanks for your patience.

[Rclark]

 Sorry guys, it was late and I passed out after posting that

http://emotivalounge.proboards.com/index.cgi?action=display&board=newgear&thread=25292&page=7

what made it especially genuine is that's not even his thread, it kinda came out of nowhere although he was posting here and there and showing interest in the conversation.

 I believe I've pulled a few members of that forum over this way. MKCARNUT is actually Klinemj, the OP of that thread over there, who has actually purchased 1.7's and some Ncores, based on my impressions of them, and all the threads I linked him to over here.

[medium jim]

It would be more than helpful if RClark posted a link to the Cut & Paste said to have originated at another forum.   Otherwise, it to me is not real or in other words lacks fidelity.

Having owned a pair of 1.6's, I found them to be bass shy to the point that without subs were like two large AM Radio's.  With subs they were excellent.  I have several hours of listening to the 1.7's on both top shelf SS and Tubes and they're more coherent, still a little light in the bass, but not to the extent of my 1.6's and just seemed to engage you in a more personal way. 

I was going to buy the 3.7's, that is until a pair of 2.5's showed up on CL that I restored and they're better than the 1.7's and close to the 3.7's in fidelity.  I prefer the simpler 2 Way design as it means less capacitance and resistance within the circuit and especially with Mundorf Caps that seem to have excised the alleged midrange dip. 

I have also have several hours of listening to the MMG's and while a fine speaker, not the same league as the 1.6 or 1.7's and not meant to be.  They're an excellent entry level speaker that with some mod's can be very good, especially in a small room.  They just don't have the physical size required within the confines of planardom.   By the time you have modded them, either via the Razor Method, Gunned, or otherwise you could have bought 1.6's, 1.7's, a bevy of older models with true ribbons and restored them or even found a nice pair of used 3.5's, 3.6's.

The 1.7 and 3.7's are not infidel's and clearly are a step forward in the evolution of Planar Technology. Does this mean that many will still find the older models less favorable?  No!  Yet many will and do like Full QR Panels do sound true and faithful.  Moreover, Magnepan has addressed the issue of glue failure to assure years and even a lifetime of repair free enjoyment.  Many of us will have to repair our older models now and then, but even this is a small price to pay to enjoy our Maggie's for our lifetime's.

There is room for everyone!

Jim

[josh358]

Peter, tell me if I'm missing something here, but a planar woofer isn't a flat driver. It can't be, because there's no enclosure and dipole cancellation rolls off the low frequencies at 6 dB/octave below a point that depends on the physical size of the baffle size. So planar woofers are intentionally designed to have a rising bass response to compensate, basically by using an undersized motor. In addition, they can be tuned by altering diaphragm tension or segmenting the diaphragm, as in the tuning dots of the Maggies. This allows acoustic equalization -- within limits, the driver's amplitude response can be tuned to suit both the baffle and an average room (not all rooms -- some will have more bass, and some less, so you can only go for an average). Finally, you have the characteristics of the electrical crossover, which get superimposed on the mechanical response variations of the driver and the baffle.

What this says to me is that a planar loudspeaker has to be considered as a system, with frequency response ultimately depending on a wide number of interacting factors. And the reason I mention that is that I'm not sure it's meaningful to talk about comparing such a driver in isolation. The moment it's in a baffle of a different size or used with a crossover that doesn't have the right electrical characteristics, its tuning will be off, and it will sound wrong. But I don't know the specifics of the transplant you performed, so this is more a question than anything else.

I'd add that when I've spoken to people at Magnepan, they've always referred to "this sounds better" or "this sounds worse" or, not infrequently from Wendell, "That sounds terrible." The reason I mention that is that it's always been about fidelity. I can't imagine them intentionally designing in a coloration. You should have seen Wendell freak out when I first heard the Tri Center and it sounded too bright to me (he fixed the issue with the resistors), or when I heard a minor bump in the midbass the next day -- I had to dissuade him from diving in and fixing it, or I would never have had a chance to listen!

Also, as far as drivers being better or worse, they won't release something in a new model until their listening panels agree that it sounds better. Mark Winey, for example, wouldn't agree to include the supertweeter in the 1.7 until all the guys from the factory had heard it and agreed that it was an improvement.

Of course that's not to say that a new model is definitely better than an old, or that some people won't prefer the old. It's just by way of passing on the sense I have of their priorities and their operation. Just as some designers make SET amps and others make 1000 watt A/B behemoths, there are always going to be differences of opinion. But personally, I've never had the sense that they would release an upgrade that they didn't genuinely think improved the audio performance of their product. The overwhelming impression I have from meeting and talking to the people there is that they're audiophiles just like us, doing what they do not to make a buck (although as a business they have of course to stay profitable), but because they love it.

[josh358]

Many of us will have to repair our older models now and then, but even this is a small price to pay to enjoy our Maggie's for our lifetime's.

One of the nice things, though, is that you can use the new adhesive and then the rebuild will last a lifetime.

[medium jim]

One of the nice things, though, is that you can use the new adhesive and then the rebuild will last a lifetime.

Josh:

If I had more delamination I would have opted to do a complete removal and reglue using the new glue, or send them to Magnepan to do it.

The fact that Magnepan allows owners of their products, regardless of age, to send them back for complete rebuilding at a modest price is telling if the company that they are.

Jim

[munosmario]

Peter, tell me if I'm missing something here, but a planar woofer isn't a flat driver. It can't be, because there's no enclosure and dipole cancellation rolls off the low frequencies at 6 dB/octave below a point that depends on the physical size of the baffle size. So planar woofers are intentionally designed to have a rising bass response to compensate, basically by using an undersized motor. In addition, they can be tuned by altering diaphragm tension or segmenting the diaphragm, as in the tuning dots of the Maggies. This allows acoustic equalization -- within limits, the driver's amplitude response can be tuned to suit both the baffle and an average room (not all rooms -- some will have more bass, and some less, so you can only go for an average). Finally, you have the characteristics of the electrical crossover, which get superimposed on the mechanical response variations of the driver and the baffle.

What this says to me is that a planar loudspeaker has to be considered as a system, with frequency response ultimately depending on a wide number of interacting factors. And the reason I mention that is that I'm not sure it's meaningful to talk about comparing such a driver in isolation. The moment it's in a baffle of a different size or used with a crossover that doesn't have the right electrical characteristics, its tuning will be off, and it will sound wrong. But I don't know the specifics of the transplant you performed, so this is more a question than anything else.

I'd add that when I've spoken to people at Magnepan, they've always referred to "this sounds better" or "this sounds worse" or, not infrequently from Wendell, "That sounds terrible." The reason I mention that is that it's always been about fidelity. I can't imagine them intentionally designing in a coloration. You should have seen Wendell freak out when I first heard the Tri Center and it sounded too bright to me (he fixed the issue with the resistors), or when I heard a minor bump in the midbass the next day -- I had to dissuade him from diving in and fixing it, or I would never have had a chance to listen!

Also, as far as drivers being better or worse, they won't release something in a new model until their listening panels agree that it sounds better. Mark Winey, for example, wouldn't agree to include the supertweeter in the 1.7 until all the guys from the factory had heard it and agreed that it was an improvement.

Of course that's not to say that a new model is definitely better than an old, or that some people won't prefer the old. It's just by way of passing on the sense I have of their priorities and their operation. Just as some designers make SET amps and others make 1000 watt A/B behemoths, there are always going to be differences of opinion. But personally, I've never had the sense that they would release an upgrade that they didn't genuinely think improved the audio performance of their product. The overwhelming impression I have from meeting and talking to the people there is that they're audiophiles just like us, doing what they do not to make a buck (although as a business they have of course to stay profitable), but because they love it.

josh358, brilliantly said.  Since apparently Peter likes car analogies, you cannot simply take out the engines of two Formula 1 cars (A&B)--away from their own specifically designed car-systems (namely, frames, transmissions, electrical systems, steerings, suspensions, tires, etc)—then, put both of those engines in another “car-system” and, after testing them in the new common configuration, conclude that Car A is better than Car B because its engine outperformed the engine of Car B when both were used as engines in the same third car-system.

Likewise, regarding that quote from RClark, the observed outcome only demonstrates that the subjects preferred MGM’s over the 1.7’s in that specific demo-room, using a midmarket AV Marantz receiver. Period.  First and foremost, we have no idea how optimal was  the 1.7’s placing in that demo-room (in itself and relative to that of the MMG’s). In addition, we have no idea how the outcome would have been with the use of a higher quality amplifier (different topology, etc).

Mario

[Peter Gunn]

Peter, tell me if I'm missing something here, but a planar woofer isn't a flat driver.

I am really beginning to wonder if we're even talking about the same speaker. What part of a maggie driver is not flat? Have you not seen one?

As for the car analogies, everyone wants to believe what they want. If anyone is going to tell me you can't compare a 68' VW bug motor to a 68" Cougar motor if you stuck them in a 73" vega, that makes no sense. They can be made to fit, and the cougar motor would kill the other. If you don't think so.. I have no reply to that.

I have been catching hell for years because I might make the slightest implication about what magnepan does, and here you are asking me outright policy questions. Whatever you or I think is irrelevant in any case and not germain to the topic, so please stop asking me policy questions about this company.

The fact is we are both assuming, but do you believe what every PR man for every company says is always true? Then again the man is a salesman after all, by golly, they've never been known to stretch the truth.... have they?

Finally, you are wrong about the new adhesive. I have already seen maggies with this in a state of delam. It does not appear to happen as easily but under the proper conditions it can still happen. The same protocols as always should be observed.

[medium jim]

I am really beginning to wonder if we're even talking about the same speaker. What part of a maggie driver is not flat? Have you not seen one?

As for the car analogies, everyone wants to believe what they want. If anyone is going to tell me you can't compare a 68' VW bug motor to a 68" Cougar motor if you stuck them in a 73" vega, that makes no sense. They can be made to fit, and the cougar motor would kill the other. If you don't think so.. I have no reply to that.

I have been catching hell for years because I might make the slightest implication about what magnepan does, and here you are asking me outright policy questions. Whatever you or I think is irrelevant in any case and not germain to the topic, so please stop asking me policy questions about this company.

The fact is we are both assuming, but do you believe what every PR man for every company says is always true? Then again the man is a salesman after all, by golly, they've never been known to stretch the truth.... have they?

Finally, you are wrong about the new adhesive. I have already seen maggies with this in a state of delam. It does not appear to happen as easily but under the proper conditions it can still happen. The same protocols as always should be observed.

Why is so important to be right?  By your own words, you have enough business to keep you going, so again, why does it matter to you that others don't believe or espouse some or all of your theories.   No doubt that your Gunned Magnepan's sound different that their stock incantations and that many of your customers like them.   

Sharing knowledge is good, arguing the same points ad nauseum gets old.  Maybe you should go through the grant me a circle process where you can do and say what you want....

Jim

[SteveFord]

Which speakers have you seen that are undergoing the delamination? 

I didn't care for the 1.7s very much when I first heard them at the dealers but that changed once I got them home and put some time on them.
On some recordings I preferred the 1.6s but overall it was 1.7s for me due to their sounding better at low volumes.
Wendell put it really well with what you're buying as you move on up the range is resolution.
What I use with the MMGs will sound pretty crummy with the 1.7s and the preamp, at least, gets shown up with the 3.7s.
I think Mario nailed it - the better the speakers the better the running gear needs to be.

[medium jim]

Absolutely, the higher up you go up the ladder in the Magnepan hierarchy the greater the need is for superior amplification and preamplification. 

Now if someone could make my Maggie's sound great on an off the shelf mid-fi receiver, I would call them my hero...assuming it didn't cost a small fortune.

If Magnepan's cost 3x as much, they would still have a niche market and these folks would spend proportionally on their amps and wouldn't think twice about it.
Thank goodness that they don't cost 3x as much as it allowed me to afford the amps that I have.

This goes back to what Mario noted, 1.7's need to be paired with quality amplification to shine their best.  Additionally, are a bit placement fussy than the smaller MMG's.

Jim

[munosmario]

I am really beginning to wonder if we're even talking about the same speaker. What part of a maggie driver is not flat? Have you not seen one?

As for the car analogies, everyone wants to believe what they want. If anyone is going to tell me you can't compare a 68' VW bug motor to a 68" Cougar motor if you stuck them in a 73" vega, that makes no sense. They can be made to fit, and the cougar motor would kill the other. If you don't think so.. I have no reply to that.

I have been catching hell for years because I might make the slightest implication about what magnepan does, and here you are asking me outright policy questions. Whatever you or I think is irrelevant in any case and not germain to the topic, so please stop asking me policy questions about this company.

The fact is we are both assuming, but do you believe what every PR man for every company says is always true? Then again the man is a salesman after all, by golly, they've never been known to stretch the truth.... have they?

Finally, you are wrong about the new adhesive. I have already seen maggies with this in a state of delam. It does not appear to happen as easily but under the proper conditions it can still happen. The same protocols as always should be observed.

Sorry Peter, that is not what the post said. It was not about not being able to compare the two engines installed in a third car. It was about not necessarily being correct to conclude that because the combination of a third car-system and the engine of Car B outperformed the combination with the engine of Car A (just as you say it could be done), then, Car B is better than Car A...see the difference? That would be tantamount to compare two cars by taking their respective engines out and putting them in a third car--a bit absurd, no matter how neutral, if that is possible at all, the third car-system may be for the test. That could be a valid test to compare engines not cars.

mario

[munosmario]

I am really beginning to wonder if we're even talking about the same speaker. What part of a maggie driver is not flat? Have you not seen one?

Peter, Josh is referring to "flat" as in "flat frequency response", not as in "flat physical shape."

Mario

[josh358]

I am really beginning to wonder if we're even talking about the same speaker. What part of a maggie driver is not flat? Have you not seen one?

I have been catching hell for years because I might make the slightest implication about what magnepan does, and here you are asking me outright policy questions. Whatever you or I think is irrelevant in any case and not germain to the topic, so please stop asking me policy questions about this company.

The fact is we are both assuming, but do you believe what every PR man for every company says is always true? Then again the man is a salesman after all, by golly, they've never been known to stretch the truth.... have they?

Finally, you are wrong about the new adhesive. I have already seen maggies with this in a state of delam. It does not appear to happen as easily but under the proper conditions it can still happen. The same protocols as always should be observed.

I was referring to amplitude response, not the physical shape of the driver. The point being that the response of the driver is tuned to the system and will produce the desired results only with a frame of the same configuration, and the same crossover, and for that matter a listening room of the same size.

I try to draw a distinction, by the way, between liking and disliking a particular speaker, which is a matter of personal opinion, with assertions about the motivation of the people who make it. I'll never criticize someone for saying they like A better than B, though I may disagree. I am troubled by assertions about *why* a company does something, particularly if I have reason to believe that that isn't the case. Yes, Wendell is the head of sales, and I wouldn't expect him to say anything unflattering to the company. But I've now had many long conversations with Wendell both on the phone and in person, and I feel I have a good sense of what he cares about, and how passionately he cares about it. I've also had an opportunity to meet Mark and Jim Winey and many others at Magnepan, to get a feel for how they think and who they are. So I've gotten some insight into why they made the decisions that they did, and if they were just putting one over on me, it's quite a group effort.

I'll be writing about this at greater length but lots of anecdotes to tell, like when I passed on someone's question about the fuse bypass mod, with some trepidation -- was he going to say that's dumb, was he going to say that voids the warranty. Instead, he said "Oh, I've done that myself on my 3.7's! It makes the sound a bit clearer." At that point, I knew we were dealing with audiophiles like ourselves.

Anyway, just wanted to explain where I'm coming from. It's not about opinions for me, but about speculation about why they do things, when for the most part none of us really know. See the distinction I'm trying to make?

Another way of putting it might be that you said on your website that the 1.7 supertweeter was a marketing gimmick. I never thought so on technical grounds, and by chance Mark Winey told me that when it was first developed, he insisted that the guys from the factory come in and do an AB test with the prototype, because it costs them more money to put it in and he wasn't going to OK it unless they liked it better. As it turned out, everybody did.

So unless we happen to know something specific, I think it's safest for us to avoid speculation on why they do stuff. But I'd never want you to withhold your opinion on how things sound. I may or may not agree, mostly I won't know (forex, I still haven't heard the 1.7 myself), but I always find it of interest, along with your other observations.

[SteveFord]

The fact is we are both assuming, but do you believe what every PR man for every company says is always true? Then again the man is a salesman after all, by golly, they've never been known to stretch the truth.... have they?

It should be noted that Mr. Gunn builds and sells modified Magnepan speakers.
The woodworking on his products is simply superb.

[josh358]

Finally, you are wrong about the new adhesive. I have already seen maggies with this in a state of delam. It does not appear to happen as easily but under the proper conditions it can still happen. The same protocols as always should be observed.

Forgot to reply to this. They've been using the new adhesive for I think about ten years now. According to Mark, they haven't seen a single case of delam, so if it is happening, I imagine they'd want to know.

I learned more about the history of that from Mark, by the way, which I think explains some of the observations you made on your delam web page. It seems that the first adhesive they used was UV sensitive, so after ten years, they switched to a new one. That wasn't UV sensitive, but it turned out to be water sensitive. So after ten years, Mark, who had just come back to the company, led an R&D project to find an adhesive that was immune to both. They sent it for testing at a company that specializes in life cycle testing, it passed, and since they introduced it about a decade ago, they haven't seen any delam issues.

[josh358]

Likewise, regarding that quote from RClark, the observed outcome only demonstrates that the subjects preferred MGM’s over the 1.7’s in that specific demo-room, using a midmarket AV Marantz receiver. Period.  First and foremost, we have no idea how optimal was  the 1.7’s placing in that demo-room (in itself and relative to that of the MMG’s). In addition, we have no idea how the outcome would have been with the use of a higher quality amplifier (different topology, etc).

I've seen several people conclude on the basis of the dealer demonstration that a cheaper model is better than a more expensive one. Generally, what seems to happen is they'll listen again at another dealer, or get it home, and change their minds. Not saying that that would always happen, just that the vagaries of dealer demos (acoustics, placement, amplification, etc.) are such that they can't necessarily be relied on.

Just pointing that out, while I know the MMG well, as I said, I haven't heard the 1.7 myself and I know that people don't always like the newer model as much as the old.

[SteveFord]

I've been conducting my own adhesive testing here at home.
Halitosis seems to be the killer.

[munosmario]

I've seen several people conclude on the basis of the dealer demonstration that a cheaper model is better than a more expensive one. Generally, what seems to happen is they'll listen again at another dealer, or get it home, and change their minds. Not saying that that would always happen, just that the vagaries of dealer demos (acoustics, placement, amplification, etc.) are such that they can't necessarily be relied on.

Just pointing that out, while I know the MMG well, as I said, I haven't heard the 1.7 myself and I know that people don't always like the newer model as much as the old.

Josh, aside situations where the lower cost speaker is better than the more expensive (or it sounds better because the more expensive one is not set properly and/or not driven with the right electronics), I believe that, in many instances, the outcome you describe is the result of cognitive disonance. As you may know, in a simplified view, cognitive dissonance is when one is biased towards a certain decision even though other factors favour an alternative.

It is a way of making decisions or chosing situations when there is a conflict (disonance) of values and/or beliefs. To quote Wikipedia: "The theory of cognitive dissonance in social psychology proposes that people have a motivational drive to reduce dissonance by altering existing cognitions, adding new ones to create a consistent belief system, or alternatively by reducing the importance of any one of the dissonant elements." So, within the context of your quoted post, if one is stingy or budget is a constraint, we convince ourselves that a cheaper component/model is better than a more expensive one when that is not necessarily the case. Or, going even farther, declare it  the best there is, whether or not one has auditioned a statistical representative number of alternatives. Or, conversely, if "prestige" is important, we would stick to the expensive model rejecting any bona-fide "gigant killer" in the proximity.

Of course, "cognitive disonance" is clearly different from "conscious compromise". Aside of differences in hearing acuity or sonic tastes/preferences, these two psycological approaches, most certainly, could explain most of the arguments in audiophile forums.

Mario

[josh358]

I've been conducting my own adhesive testing here at home.
Halitosis seems to be the killer.

My speakers will of course last forever, then.