[RenaissanceMan]

Hi folks-

First of all, let me apologize in advance for a lengthy post. I'm a brand new forum member; just found out about this site after posting at the Audiogon site... As my thread title states, I'm completely ignorant when it comes to the audiophile world, but I really want to start building a system and learn something in the process. A little background on me: I've been making a living as a recording artist and studio musician for almost 20 years, but my career choice as a music-maker has somehow ironically detached me from the simple pleasure of just sitting and _listening_ to music for the sheer enjoyment of it. My wife and I are currently in the process of remodeling our bonus room into a media room, and one of my objectives is to at the very least turn it into a space where I can do some critical listening.

I currently don't have anything decent... Just some old Bose bookshelf speakers and a Yamaha surround receiver. The closest thing to 'something decent' that I own are a pair of Etymotic ER-4S headphones coupled with a Headroom headphone amplifier.

The big limiting factor is my budget. Given that fact, maybe I have no business posting here... I will probably need to build this piece-by-piece over time, so I'm content with having to stretch the process out. I'm not concerned with having to have the 'best' of anything; I would just really like to make listening to music an engaging and emotional experience for me like it was for me many years ago.

Would a speaker purchase be a good place to start? I was perusing the Audiogon classifieds today and saw that there is actually a pair of DK Designs LSA-2's for sale local to me. The asking price is at the top of my speaker budget, a little over a grand, which I realize is probably 'chump change' in the audiophile world. However, I've read some reviews and they seem mostly positive. Would be super-convenient to be able to find something nice that was used and local, but as I said before, I'm completely new to this. Another related question: Is it better to go with floor-standing speakers, or can decent sound also be accomplished with bookshelf speakers combined with a subwoofer?

Also, what are the other 'basic' components that would need to be purchased? The only other thing I know I'd love to have would be a decent turntable; I'd love to be able to go and purchase some of my favorite classic albums to listen to once again. Do I need a separate preamp and power amp combination? Are there any 'receivers' that do a decent job of covering both tasks?

Any other feedback or direction you experts could throw my way would be greatly appreciated... Thanks in advance!

[EDS_]

Hi folks-

First of all, let me apologize in advance for a lengthy post. I'm a brand new forum member; just found out about this site after posting at the Audiogon site... As my thread title states, I'm completely ignorant when it comes to the audiophile world, but I really want to start building a system and learn something in the process. A little background on me: I've been making a living as a recording artist and studio musician for almost 20 years, but my career choice as a music-maker has somehow ironically detached me from the simple pleasure of just sitting and _listening_ to music for the sheer enjoyment of it. My wife and I are currently in the process of remodeling our bonus room into a media room, and one of my objectives is to at the very least turn it into a space where I can do some critical listening.

I currently don't have anything decent... Just some old Bose bookshelf speakers and a Yamaha surround receiver. The closest thing to 'something decent' that I own are a pair of Etymotic ER-4S headphones coupled with a Headroom headphone amplifier.

The big limiting factor is my budget. Given that fact, maybe I have no business posting here... I will probably need to build this piece-by-piece over time, so I'm content with having to stretch the process out. I'm not concerned with having to have the 'best' of anything; I would just really like to make listening to music an engaging and emotional experience for me like it was for me many years ago.

Would a speaker purchase be a good place to start? I was perusing the Audiogon classifieds today and saw that there is actually a pair of DK Designs LSA-2's for sale local to me. The asking price is at the top of my speaker budget, a little over a grand, which I realize is probably 'chump change' in the audiophile world. However, I've read some reviews and they seem mostly positive. Would be super-convenient to be able to find something nice that was used and local, but as I said before, I'm completely new to this. Another related question: Is it better to go with floor-standing speakers, or can decent sound also be accomplished with bookshelf speakers combined with a subwoofer?

Also, what are the other 'basic' components that would need to be purchased? The only other thing I know I'd love to have would be a decent turntable; I'd love to be able to go and purchase some of my favorite classic albums to listen to once again. Do I need a separate preamp and power amp combination? Are there any 'receivers' that do a decent job of covering both tasks?

Any other feedback or direction you experts could throw my way would be greatly appreciated... Thanks in advance!

IMO being an audiophile is one thing....being a music lover who desires engaging sound is something else quite often.  And one of the great challenges in audio is piecing together a system that gets you close to the music without breaking the bank.

I think a first step might reading a bunch of posts from the "Cheap and Cheerful Hi-Fi" section right here on AC. 

[eclein]

Money has never stopped me and I'm as poor as you can get. I live on Soc.Sec Dis. and started out with Bose Speakers a SONY AV receiver and a PS3 but I did have nice OZMA headphones from Ultrasone.

 I read everything I could here and found out who had similar tastes in many things and who the folks were that gave helpful advice without sounding like "they knew" all the answers. In fact you soon find out who gives honest, good solid advice and then I started posting a little bit at a time. My first question was "Whats a DAC?" and nobody laughed at me, they explained what it was and then I started slowly figuring it all out.

There are a whole bunch of us who love to find the awesome sounding equipment for the least amount of coin. My current system was put together over a year and 1/2 and sound great to me. Right now I would not be hesitant in having anybody over from the circle to listen to tunes with but in the beginning there was only one guy who heard my stuff and taught me a little bit at a time about a bunch of things. So Hand out grove to the Ety's as I do with my MC5's and read as much as you can!!! I'm Ed PM me anytime???

[tonyptony]

RM, welcome. You've already gotten some good info from Ed and EDS. Cheap 'n' Cheerful is a good place to start. If you don't mind telling us in what part of the country you live, we may be able to identify an upcoming audio show in your area. While it can be overwhelming, a show does give you the chance to hear a good cross section of what modern audio has to offer... with some caveats. First, audio equipment tends never to sound its best at a show and second, you'll probably hear things that are way beyond your budget. But I wouldn't dissuade you from going to a show because of that. You'll hear enough to know at least comparatively what you like and don't like. That will help.

Maybe you could start by telling us what you think of your current system - likes / dislikes... what you think you'd like to hear from a system. To paraphrase Max Bialystock "You're a musician. The word "music" is in your profession!"

[Wayner]

A nice Marantz receiver, like a 2250 paired with a pair of Advent model 3s would be awesome. Look for a Technics SL-Q2 DD turntable to finish it off. Probably can get it all for under $600.

Wayner

[JLM]

We need a little more info:

Vinyl or CD?
Stereo or home theater possibilities?
Primary musical genre(s)?
What audiophile aspects do you yearn for (tone, dynamics, detail, imaging, etc.)?
What's the room like (size, doors/windows, type of walls/ceiling/floor, carpet?, significant other "limitations"?)
Total budget?

If you're shooting for around $2,000 USD for a total budget there are tons of options.  Let's pick the best for you.

[RenaissanceMan]

Thanks everyone for the replies so far!

I've been gathering advice and info from some different folks online and it's all great feedback. The only problem is that now I have even more questions.  In the meantime, I'll do my best to answer the ones already asked:

Here's some more info on what I have to work with and what I hope to achieve... The listening room will be our 'bonus room', which is roughly a 13'x19' rectangle with an asymmetrical vaulted ceiling. the system would be placed against one of the long walls. In other words, I'll be listening from the 'short' side of the room. We have an l-shaped sectional basically placed in the the center of the room. The distance from the seating position to the wall is approximately 8.5', so I'm assuming I'd be about 7' away from the speakers when listening. There are windows on the right side and rear of the room. The left side of the room is open to the staircases leading to the downstairs and bedrooms. Floor is carpeted, and the walls have no acoustic treatment.

The room will also be used to watch movies, HOWEVER I'm not as concerned as much with an audiophile-quality movie experience. My priority is on music, and that's where i want most of my investment to go. We have a little Logitech wireless surround system with tiny speakers and a sub that we can keep setup for watching movies that is small enough to stay out of the way... At least, that's my thinking for now.

As for musical genres, I'll mostly be listening to jazz, jazz/fusion, funk, rock, and classic r&b... I would love to ultimately listen to vinyl on this system, but as I'm going to have to build this over time I'm fine with listening to cd's for now. I'd at least like to have a way to get them sounding better, and my understanding is that a good DAC would help accomplish this...

My short term budget is about $2k. My 'medium-term' budget is $5k. Beyond that, we'll have to see how things develop and how much I end up enjoying this hobby. I'm basically starting from scratch. The only components I have are an old Yamaha RX-V690 A/V receiver, a Sony RDR-GX315 DVD/CD player, an XBOX 360, and a pair of Bose 301 bookshelf speakers. 

Up to now my plan has been to start with a nice pair of speakers, because at least I'd have something temporary to play through them, even if I won't hear their true potential until upgrading source... However, I'm open to whatever feedback y'all can provide. I'm leaning in the direction of floor-standing speakers, as I'd like to not have to use a sub and also I'm ignorantly assuming that they might contribute more to the experience I described.

As far as aspects that I yearn for, I'm looking for a listening experience that has me feeling like I'm actually 'inside' the music. That's the best way I can think to describe it. I want to feel like I'm listening from 'the inside-out', if that makes any sense at all. The last time I felt that way was when I listened to an old mono recording of Coltrane on vinyl on a friend's smaller-sized audiophile system at a healthy volume. It was incredible.

Thanks again for all of your help!!! BTW, I'm in the Nashville, TN area.

[srb]

Up to now my plan has been to start with a nice pair of speakers, because at least I'd have something temporary to play through them, even if I won't hear their true potential until upgrading source... However, I'm open to whatever feedback y'all can provide. I'm leaning in the direction of floor-standing speakers, as I'd like to not have to use a sub and also I'm ignorantly assuming that they might contribute more to the experience I described.

Here is a pair of floorstanders local to you that might be worth investigating:
 
http://www.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls.pl?spkrfull&1329324486&/Revel-F-12-Concerta-Tower
 
And a few reviews:
 
http://www.stereophile.com/floorloudspeakers/706revel
 
http://www.soundstage.com/revequip/revel_concerta_f12.htm
 
Steve

[DeadFish]

Welcome, RM!  I don't know if I'll be any help; you have gotten some great ideas from some thinkers out there.  I've been a cheep freak since I got into this stuff in my elder years (I say loosely) but there are some GREAT stuffs out there that will roll your socks up and down if you take your time, listen, read, buy used for a while (at least) listen some more, trade off and buy some more....
It's a journey that can get better and better especially looking at the gear out there a few years old with great reviews.  See if you can find some folks nearby like I was lucky enough to do with the GAS (St Louis) group.  Heard things I never heard of.  Nobody wants you to have a 'booger' in your corners.  You will make some great plays and maybe some don't quite suit your fancy, but hey, buying used you can turn around and have the experience for minimum expenses.  (My first Vandies cost me $100 to ship in and I learned from THAT!)  Loved em though.  Keep us appraised of what;s happening and what you like/dislike, we'll try to help.  Don't be afraid to ask to listen at a local sale!  Someone in your shoes be glad to share some tunes with you!  Man, I have less than $2k in the living room I'm not ashamed of with friends and strangers, and left some with their mouth hanging open so it CAN happen! 
Best Regards!!
DeadFish

[RenaissanceMan]

Thanks again for the replies. A couple of questions:

Wayner, are there other models of that period of Marantz gear that would be good? I see that the 2250 is talked about a bit as a good starter receiver, however I don't see a bunch of them for sale. Are 2275's or 2220's basically the same?

Steve, thanks for the tip on the F12's. Those look interesting, and I'd like to go hear them.

There are also a pair of LSA LS2's for sale local to me... I've read good things about them online. Have any of you had any experience with either those or the F12's?

[Wayner]

The 2275 is a little newer, but is a good receiver with 75 watts per channel (RMS @ 8 ohms), the 2220 is underpowered with only 20 watts per channel.

A 2252 is good as well. Stay away from any SR series receivers. It is always wise to be patient when looking for a used receiver on eBay. Take your time and get one from someone who has a 100% rating. Known problems with some of the vintage gear like power switches and volume controls, have no replacement source.

Vintage speakers can be tricky if you don't know the history of the brand. AR speakers (except for the 4X) will all have rotted woofer surrounds, as will every other Advent, except for the Model 3, which was designed by Henry Kloss. One of the least expensive speakers ever designed and will outperform many of todays speakers. Bass in spades and they image like a bastard. Not made for continuous high power, but you can throttle them a bit. KLH is another brand with surround problems.

Wayner

[Wayner]

The 2275 is a little newer, but is a good receiver with 75 watts per channel (RMS @ 8 ohms), the 2220 is underpowered with only 20 watts per channel.

A 2252 is good as well. Stay away from any SR series receivers. It is always wise to be patient when looking for a used receiver on eBay. Take your time and get one from someone who has a 100% rating. Known problems with some of the vintage gear like power switches and volume controls, have no replacement source.

Vintage speakers can be tricky if you don't know the history of the brand. AR speakers (except for the 4X) will all have rotted woofer surrounds, as will every other Advent, except for the Model 3, which was designed by Henry Kloss. One of the least expensive speakers ever designed and will outperform many of todays speakers. Bass in spades and they image like a bastard. Not made for continuous high power, but you can throttle them a bit. KLH is another brand with surround problems.

Wayner

Oops.

[eclein]

Revel F12's that look that nice I'd jump on them myself only because you rarely see them for sale used. I'm assuming folks buy them and don't have the urge to upgrade, sidegrade, or anyother grade ever again.

[roscoeiii]

I do think that focusing on speakers first is a good move. And I'd stick with used speakers that are in good shape. Try them out and listen to as many types of speakers as possible to figure out how certain speaker designs correspond to your musical preferences. If you shop wisely, you can also sell the used speakers you buy for not much less than you bought them for, especially if you don't have to pay shipping.

And in general, if not designed to go against a back wall, most speakers sound better out a bit in the room. If you need the speakers to be against the wall, make sure they don't have a rear port for sure, and try to see if you can find reports of how they sound backed against the wall.

And no need to jump into separate preamp and power amp. I started off with a receiver that had preamp outs, then added on an amp and used the receiver as a pre until I could afford a preamp.

Vinylwise, a lot depends on how much you want to tweak or think you will want to upgrade vs. a desire for plug-and-play. If you want plug-and-play something like a Rega would work. When I started out, on the recommendation of folks on these forums, I bought a VPI HW-19Jr. Less plug and play but better sonic payoff IMHO. What sold me on the VPI was the ability to upgrade it incrementally to a better platter, motor, power supply etc. as funds permitted. And these upgrades are pretty readily available used. VPI worked great until I made a big jump up to a Well Tempered Amadeus. (Disclaimer, I am currently selling the VPI, but you can see others thoughts on it in these forums).

Hope all this helps and best of luck in your search.

[Mitsuman]

Thanks again for the replies. A couple of questions:

Wayner, are there other models of that period of Marantz gear that would be good? I see that the 2250 is talked about a bit as a good starter receiver, however I don't see a bunch of them for sale. Are 2275's or 2220's basically the same?

Steve, thanks for the tip on the F12's. Those look interesting, and I'd like to go hear them.

There are also a pair of LSA LS2's for sale local to me... I've read good things about them online. Have any of you had any experience with either those or the F12's?

If you were interested in a Marantz 2270, PM me. 

[drjjpdc]

Renaissance,

A $2K budget is a great starting point. Speakers are very personal but I think the Revel's in Nashville is a very good stroke of luck because they are not far to listen to. The TT is a tough nut because even a budget one is going to be $1000-1500 (remember you have a TT, tonearm and cartridge). I have a Clearaudio Concept and you can buy the whole package for about $1500. I would wait for a while because the next step up from a TT like the one above is big bucks (talking at least $2500-3000).

To get bang for your buck, why not an integrated amp with a phono input? There are two I can recommend from experience; the new Rega Brio-R (about $800) and the Music Hall a15.2 ($500). They are similar in size and power, but even though the Rega sounds just a bit better, it wasn't $300 better as far as I was concerned. The Music Hall is a giant killer because it has a headphone input, USB and a Mini jack for MP-3. Just from experience, I think the Revels and the MH would be a good match for each other and would give you 2 quality parts of your system equation for about $1300. I am not a Revel nut but to get a quality speaker for half price is a good deal. Plus getting a good but reasonable pair of floor standers save money by not buying stands. Other good quality names are PSB speakers, NAD electronics, etc.

Don't throw away your old stuff because you have the makings of a surround system as well. The Bose are not real big and could easily be your rear surrounds. Plus the receiver would be great for the two Bose and a center channel later on. I would also use the CD/DVD player for the present. But in the end it is all up to you and how you want to allocate your budget. Keep us all in the loop.

[Ericus Rex]

I have heard those LSA speakers you mention at a show in Montreal a couple of years ago.  I thought they sounded pretty good!  However, I think you can do better for about the same amount of money.  I'd personally buy a pair of used Meadowlark Shearwater Hot Rods (usually around or under $1k).  I don't see any currently being offered but keep an eye over at Audiogon.  I haven't heard a better speaker for under $1k (they sold for $3.5k new!).

As for electronics, keep your CD player for now and consider this:

http://www.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls.pl?intatube&1327364783&/Rogue-Audio-Tempest-Magnum-Tub

The Rogue stuff is great, very engaging, reliable and TUBED!  IMHO, if you want to get 'inside' the music tubes are the best route.  You can also find a Rogue Cronus for around $1k but I personally think the Tempest is the better amp.

Later on, upgrade your CD player to an Oppo or a Marantz SA-8004 (my preference) or the like and then you'd have a system worthy of your friend's envy...for under $3k!  The remaining $2k can be spent on a phono setup if you'd like.

[asset]

Hi RM-

I suggest an alternative to consider. I just bought a very basic stereo system and I couldn't be happier with it. There are only 2 components to the whole thing, which keeps cost and clutter to a minimum. The speakers are self-powered, bi-amped Dynaudio BM6A MKII nearfield monitors. No amp or preamp required, and nearfield is good for stereo imaging in your short listening area. Read about them here: http://www.zzounds.com/item--DYNBM6AMKII

The source is the Oppo 95. The 95 plays all disc formats, streaming media, video including 3-D, and has reference quality DACs feeding dedicated stereo outs. Read about it here: http://www.oppodigital.com/blu-ray-bdp-95/

That's the whole system. I got mine with cables for $2214.95 total. But it's not just the price, it's also the sound. If I understand you, you don't want to hear the equipment, you want to hear the music. You want to be in the middle of the music. That's what I experience with this system. It's been a revelation to me.

You have some fun shopping and decisions to consider. Hope it makes for a great Christmastime!

Barry

[RenaissanceMan]

Thanks, guys-

Since the LSA2's and the Revel's are local I am planning on taking my Yamaha and going to hear them in person. I'll check back in after I hear them.

roscoeiii, if a pair of speakers is rear-ported, how far away from the wall is 'far-enough'? I do have some setup and space constraints in this room and I'm thinking the most I could go would be around 4-5" away... Not sure if that's enough.

drjjpdc, I forgot I had it in storage but I also have an older JBL center channel speaker lying around, so I think I could piece something together for movies easy enough for now as a temporary solution.

Ericus Rex, that Rogue does look quite interesting! Thanks for the heads up!

[roscoeiii]

Don't have a lot of experience with rear-ported speakers myself, so hopefully someone else can chime in here. But 4-5" seems too close to the wall to me.

Might wanna look at the manufacturer's websites and see if they or the manuals have any suggestions on placement.