Complete newbie needing guidance/purchase advice

JackD201 · « **Reply #20 on:** 24 Dec 2011, 06:45 am »

Hi RM,

Local LSA2 towers for a grand AND local sounds like a steal. They have a warm, rich, smooth and full character to them that makes them easy to pair up with receivers and medium powered solid state electronics. It's got a bit of vintage vibe to it and that's exactly what Brian and John intended. They're not as demanding of upstream components compared to say, their upgraded more neutral brother the LSA 2 Statement. If this is the type of sound you go for, it's worth an audition especially at 60% off the retail price and no shipping and handling costs.

I've sold a lot of these speakers and have heard them paired with as low as 12wpc 6c33 based DIY amps to Denon, Marantz and Yamaha Receivers and the LSA Standard and Statement Integrateds. The only amps I tried that didn't play well with them were my Lamm M2.2 Monoblocks. These almost busted the speakers at the seams. Too much current I guess.

As a disclaimer, I'm LSA's official distributor in the Philippines.

Elizabeth · « **Reply #21 on:** 24 Dec 2011, 06:45 am »

STOP!!!
OK first: What 'kind' of sound appeals to you?
If you love chamber music, and small combo Jazz, and acoustic music, then you will be much happier with a totally DIFFERENT SYSTEM than if you love Heavy Metal and loud Rock at concert level.
Or another different system if you love Classical orchestral music and/or Opera.. or Organ music is a type unto itself...

SO.. You need to KNOW YOURSELF first.
At least know what you want from a system in general, as what really matters TO YOU (AND YOU ALONE)

For example: Myself, I really MUST have perfect upper octaves. Clarity too. All other considerations are secondary for me.
So i want a full range speaker, I want all the 'audiophile things' but because i know what matters TO ME, I can taylor my stuff to meet my desires, and have IMO a 'perfect for me' system.

So for me I can listen to Bobby Hutcherson "Dialogue" and just be in total bliss listening to him playing the vibes.. being perfect, bell like, clear, estatic! WOW. That is the stuff "I" need to sound spectacular.
Lows, nah.. average is fine for me. The system can even be a little 'thin' to a person who likes it 'full' as long as it is really clear. (for me)
I use powerline conditioners to clarify, even though they tend to lean out the sound. (for some this is a total turn off)
I am certain others would find it lacking in THIER key desires, unless they were the same as mine. I have worked hard to make what I want most, perfect, and accept the compromises that entails at my price point.

So Think over what you listen for, what matters to you.
Many of the arguments over what is important collapse because folks do not know what each others' needs are.

For example: say you love a warm and full sound. Any leanness is anathema.
Or you have to have the bottom fundamentals there or you are just not happy.
Or say you want even tonal range, a smooth response curve because not to bothers you.. but don't care if it is a little 'fuzzy' instead of having great clarity.

Many of the qualities can be very hard to combine.
Like my desire for extreme clarity is not very compatible with any sort of midrange warmth. (So anyone liking that would generally HATE my perfect to me system)

Get the picture?

===========
Then, two ways to proceed.
Buy average stuff you can easily afford, and move up from there.
OR, buy just one killer item you can afford, and then wait till you can add another.
Say a $1,000 used amp, or $1,800 speakers and wait for the rest, buying a cheapo used receiver to get buy for $80 and a $70 used CD changer (I use CD changers with a DAC all the time)
A $250 Dac can do all you need.And actually SOME changers will do just fine.
Yamaha 740 or 840, Sony CD9ES.. do NOT buy an expensive CD player. at your price point you can use just about any used that cost $500 up new, and buy it for under $150..
Anyway. think of what REALLY matters to you in music.

Also, skip any more expensive interconnects until you have ALL your components. Same for speaker wire. just use common lampcord.
Only once your really set with elelctronics and speakers THEN think about wires or powercords or speaker cables.. Or power conditioners.

Good luck.

If you have a local small electronics store which sells used, or live near a big city where you can go.. find them and browse. Do not buy the first thing. but see what is around. Watch Audiogon for stuff you are interested in, see the prices, watch if they sell the same day, or sit for a month...
I watch stuff for years... just to do it...

(Added: and finally it is like what kind of vehicle you want for transportation: manual tranny, or 6 speed auto, big motor, or gas sipper, small body, big SUV, station wagon, hatch, convertible, truck, motorcycle, off road bike, 200mph sreet bomb, cruiser bike,
Street rod, old beat up hulk that runs decent, classic pristine beauty, sports car, sporty looking car, unusual car, luxury, the variations of what one could want seem nearly endless. SAME FOR AUDIO.

So if you know what you are looking for, it really, really makes it easier. So instead of buying a Corvette for your only car, you buy the minivan you need for you, your wife, and your four kids... Or if you are a bachelor, and love to go really fast, look good in leather, and all your friends ride, and you live in Southern California... get the Hiabusa bike and go 200mph whenever you want to.

Get the idea?

CrazyBlue · « **Reply #22 on:** 24 Dec 2011, 08:31 am »

New here myself.

I'm a music lover first, and a stereo freak second, and probably not much of an audiophile.

Having said that, I'll add another vote for the LSA's. I have the LSA-1 Signature monitors on DIY stands, paired with a Salk Songsub and driven by Emotiva UPA-1 mooblocks. I auditioned monitor speakers in the 1k to 1.5k range for a few months, including Linn Majik 109, Sous Faber Toy Monitors, Spendor LS3/5A, KEF XQ 10, Canton Ergo 620, and Paradigm Studio 20, which I heard the same room on the same Anthem gear as the LSA-1 Standard. I bought the Signatures the next day. To my ears, these are very natural, smooth, dynamic, and detailed speakers. I wouldn't hesitate to buy a pair of LSA-2's for that price, which is about what I paid for the Signature Monitors ($1050.00 plus shipping).

I'll also second the advice on a used Marantz receiver, and will add to that a recommendation for almost any vintage Sansui integrated amp in the AU line, especially the AU 9500 or AU 919, which can be found on e-Bay for around $400. I grew up with both. My grandpa was a budget stereo freak too.

Not sure about the lampcord, but monoprice offers okay cables really cheap, and bluejeans cable offers very solid cable at good prices.

The last thing I would suggest if added to any average CD player and say, one of the above receivers or integrated amps, is a dedicated DAC. There are plenty to be had under $500 that, while not the last word, will certainly offer an upgrade in sound quality over the chips and analog output stages in average CD players or computer soundcards, should you want to go that route.

Anyway, hope this helps. I'm a noob here at the circle, but I've spent hours and hours, and still more hours that became days and weeks and months researching how to get good sound for less money than the cost of an automobile (or house, for you high-end guys

).

Shaun

(Edited: I have the Signature, not Statement Monitors. Between the Standard and Statement. JackD201 got me thinking about the Statements with his post and my fingers ran amok!

)

Rocket · « **Reply #23 on:** 24 Dec 2011, 12:10 pm »

Hi,

$2000us is really tough to get a good sound system together. If you aim for this price definitely go secondhand because if you wish to upgrade later you won't take such a loss. I have an ampzilla monoblock that cost me $5000au and I can't get an offer for $1800au.

There are a pair of salk sound songtowers for sale. The seller doesn't really want to ship but will do so. Jim Salk makes beautiful handcrafter speakers that sound very good.

http://www.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls.pl?spkrfull&1327715021&/Salk-Signature-Sound-QWT-Songt

I also just bought an imod from Vinnie from Red Wine Audio for $550US which included the rca. Its a brilliant source for the price and I prefer it to my much more expensive cdp/dac combo. You could also look at secondhand integrated from virtue audio.

http://www.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls.pl?intatran&1328127742&/Virtue-One.2-Classic-Tripath

The system price comes out to $2250US and it would really rock your socks.

Good luck with your decision but secondhand is definitely the way to go.

Regards

Rod

drjjpdc · « **Reply #24 on:** 24 Dec 2011, 04:19 pm »

RM,

I have some points to think about. A rear ported (or any other one with a rear driver) speaker needs to be farther from the wall to sound its' best. As a matter of fact most speakers sound better 3-4 feet out (unless we are talking the Roy Allison speakers that were designed to be up against the rear wall).

Use the Yamaha for your surround channels only. That will take off stress by not using the L-R main amp section. The JBL should should work fine with your Bose 301's.

I rarely tell another person what to do, but I stongly agree about an integrated amp in your situation. The Rega and Music Hall (I forgot to mention that I purchased it)that I mentioned before are very good. They are solid state and can be bought new in your price range. I do prefer tubes and I have them in my main system. I also agree about getting a used tube integrated like the Rogue would be a good idea.

I just realized that I have an item you might be interested in. It is not a surround receiver but an Onkyo surround processor. I originally bought it to bring Dolby Digital to my main sound system. It not only has digital inputs but video ones as well. I also have any cables you might need. If you would like to watch digital movies anywhere else you are welcome to it (FREE, just give me a few bucks for shipping). You could easily use it with your Yamaha to have the equivalent of a DD receiver for free. Below is a website with a picture and description. I forgot mine is Black.

Looks like you could be on your way.

http://audio-database.com/ONKYO/etc/ed-301-e.html

JLM · « **Reply #25 on:** 26 Dec 2011, 02:12 pm »

Smart to start with speakers.

With HT a possibility I'd aim towards "fuller" range standmounts (something that will cover down to say 50 Hz) that for most of your genres would work just fine while under the $2,000 budget. The more expensive sub and extra speakers can be added later. Look for companies that cater to audio first and HT 2nd (like Ascend Acoustics which I love). Keep in mind that internet retailers can be competitive with used from bricks and mortar.

Same advice with electronics, just use a CD/DVD/Blu Ray player with a A/V receiver (gasp - if your serious about moving to HT sooner than later). Again to accommodate HT, I'd recommend Oppo, but suggest you also look at the 93 (half the price of the 95 with very similar excellent sound but less features). To stay in budget I'd buy a "throw away" receiver/integrated and plan on replacing it later. BTW there are some quite nice small integrates, look here at Audio Circle below for Virtue and NuForce that could easily be used in a 2nd system down the road. (Speakers and source are the two biggest factors in producing the sound you hear.)

Note that most audiophile speakers should sit 3 feet or more out into the room to get full/proper imaging (which is way more than needed for rear ported designs).

nrenter · « **Reply #26 on:** 26 Dec 2011, 02:44 pm »

Personally, I agree with Wayne on this one.

Have you explored Craigslist in the Nashville area? Simply search for "vintage" in the Electronics:

Marantz 2270 Stereo Receiver - Vintage - Clean - $350
Advent Prodigy Tower Speakers -- New Foam Surrounds -- Vintage - $150
Pioneer CS-99 Vintage Floorstanding SPEAKERS 15" Woofers - $350
Vintage Small Advent Speakers - $100

As a matter of fact, this guy seems to have a lot of fun toys available at reasonable prices:

http://nashville.craigslist.org/search/?areaID=32&subAreaID=&query=579-7694&catAbb=sss

The best part is that you could buy several sets of speakers (or receivers for that matter), keep what you like, and (easily) sell what you don't for what you paid for them.

drjjpdc · « **Reply #27 on:** 26 Dec 2011, 03:37 pm »

NR,

A speaker shape like this with a good quality speaker would work very well up against your long wall without being reall obtrusive.

http://www.epos-acoustics.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/10/HFC347.pdf

http://www.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls.pl?ddspkrfull&1322449635&demo&3&4&

RenaissanceMan · « **Reply #28 on:** 27 Dec 2011, 05:04 am »

Hey, everyone-

The dust is starting to settle after Christmas here so I'm just now having a chance to dig back into this thread. Wow, it's overwhelming how much great info has been presented already. Once again really appreciate it.

drjjpdc, I'm completely humbled by your kind offer on the Onkyo 301! I'll PM you regarding that. I didn't think about utilizing the 2 systems together and powering the center and surrounds with the Yamaha. That's a fantastic idea. I think I really like the integrated amp idea, as well, and am seriously looking at checking out that Rogue if it's still available. I really like the idea of having a tube stage in my system, being that I'm a huge fan of tube gear in my bass rigs.

nrenter, thanks. I have been checking Craigslist every few days to see what's up there. Seems to be a few things of interest, and I like that I can go and check out something local.

JLM, with your recommendation and many others' I seriously think I may end up with an Oppo. I really like what I've read about them and it sounds like it would complement my budget and needs well.

Rocket, I emailed the gentleman with the Salks. I realize I won't know until I hear them, but all the reviews I've read cited sonic characteristics that I would respond favorably to. Not sure how I feel about buying speakers "sight-unheard"

, but they are in my short list right now. I'm going to listen to the local Revels and LSA's before I do anything else, though. Unfortunately haven't been able to yet because of everyone's holiday schedules...

CrazyBlue, thanks for the speaker feedback. Nice to hear of your positive experience with LSA's. I am very much looking forward to hearing the ones here in Nashville.

Elizabeth, all of your points are well-taken. Fortunately I do "know myself" well in terms of music and audio preferences and am definitely keeping those characteristics a priority as I go shopping.

Thanks for the detailed and thought-inspiring post.

JackD, love what you're saying about the LSA's having a touch of 'vintage vibe' to them. As I said before, very much looking forward to hearing them. The only thing wrong with the pair according to the seller is that one of the 2 speakers took a 'hit' and has a couple of dings in the veneer... Hence the lower price. Hopefully it doesn't look too bad. I can be kind of picky! BTW, love your avatar. I used to have that exact car (Imola red E46 M3), and have been a huge BMW enthusiast since I was a young kid. Sold it late last year.

Ok, so my latest questions:

Have any of you heard any combination of the Revel F12's/LSA-2's/Salk Songtowers/Usher V-604's back to back and can share some insight as far as strengths or weaknesses of each?

Also, have any of you owned or heard the Benchmark DAC-1? It was recommended to me as a great DAC for monitoring.

If I purchase a CD player like the Oppo 95, is it recommended to use an outboard DAC with it, or does it have fantastic converters built-in already? If not, is SA-CD a better move?

JLM · « **Reply #29 on:** 27 Dec 2011, 05:19 am »

Either the Oppo 93 or 95 have excellent digital converters, no separate DAC needed.

The Benchmark comes from professional studios, so expect it to be light on audiophile warmth/convenience and heavy on detail. Besides with the Oppo's it's not needed.

Speaker selection is a very individual/personal thing. You really need to listen for yourself. To me, most speakers sound like varying degrees of hifi. The ones I go for sound like music and put tone ahead of detail (speakers that image well have a natural sort of detail that is not fatiguing). Imaging is the final frontier for the develop of an audiophile.

srb · « **Reply #30 on:** 27 Dec 2011, 05:42 am »

The $499 Oppo BDP-93 uses a Cirrus Logic CS4382 DAC. The $999 Oppo BDP-95 uses an ESS Sabre32 9018 DAC (actually two, one dedicated to stereo analog output and one dedicated to 7.1 analog output), a Rotel-designed analog power supply and true balanced stereo outputs.

The video performance is virtually identical and the extra $500 goes toward the analog audio improvements. If you want the best possible audio and the player will be your only digital based source, get the BDP-95. If you have or expect to have other digital sources (computer, media streamer, etc.), the $500 savings of the BDP-93 would get you half way or more to a good Sabre32 9018 (or other) DAC that can acommodate the other digital sources.

Steve

drjjpdc · « **Reply #31 on:** 27 Dec 2011, 05:57 am »

RM,
I'm glad you are open to the integrated amp idea. Besides saving on the chassis you are also saving on interconnect. I'm a tube guy but I also like orchestras and pipe organ. Plus my room is 25' x 15'. Not easy for tubes/separates, because I also like a little extra volume at times. I could not afford a balls out tube power amp and pre amp so some choices had to be made.

I originally had a receiver like you, but I knew I wanted separates. So I bought a good tube pre-amp and used it on my receiver. Yeah I thought it sounded strange too at first but my audio guy explained that where the receivers have to cheap out is at the control section (pre-amp). You use the good pre for controls and just the power stage of the receiver. Later on a multi channel amp replaced the receiver and still later I got some tube power amps and my multi amp does the surround and subwoof duties now.

I agree about the Oppo, the multiplayer is a good deal and no need for the Benchmark (good points JLM). I have heard the Revels they are very accurate and I liked them quite a bit but I wanted a bit more warmth in the midbass and went with something else. You have to listen to speakers to hear what you like and don't like. No other way around it. Never heard the LSA's so I have no opinion there. Besides the Rogue in tubes, Jolida is a good line of integrateds, but I don't know if they have a phono input. Any other help you need let me know by PM or e-mail.

Rclark · « **Reply #32 on:** 27 Dec 2011, 06:06 am »

I am also a brand new noob myself. I cannot recommend heartily enough the Magnepan MMG speakers at $600 new, they are incredible. They simply must blow away any box speakers in your price range. I have put together quite a high quality system for not a fortune, based on much research. If you have questions, PM me. My system is nearly complete.

Quiet Earth · « **Reply #33 on:** 27 Dec 2011, 06:12 am »

I have a Benchmark DAC 1 (early production model) and I also think that it is better suited as a studio tool than a component for the home stereo. You may like it at first, but you will probably get tired of it soon.

There are plenty of rear ported speakers that sound good when they are placed closed to the wall. But like Elizabeth says, what sounds good to me might not sound good to you.

It's always a good idea to hear the gear before you buy it.

tull skull · « **Reply #34 on:** 27 Dec 2011, 08:54 am »

I am not going to tell you what to buy, but I would strongly suggest that you not make any decision until you can find out if you can listen to a pair of magnepans. I think what they do well they do better than anything close to their price..(that's $300-$1000 used). They need a level of dedication a little higher than most speakers. I am referring to proper setup and amplification, but you could buy a used panasonic digital AV receiver, (look for SA-XR components) that work wonderfully with Magnepans for $100 to $500 used and if you go this route you will have a speaker/amp combination that will give you a taste of top tier sound.

Many have gone down this road and are very satisfied.

You should include your spouse in this endeavor not only to show her deserved respect but to have her as a sounding board. Her hearing is probably better than yours and she might take one look at the magnepans and know that they will never work in your space no matter how much you love them...or vice-versa.

Have you considered the do it yourself world? Lots of other opportunities open up to you if you can solder or are willing to learn and can handle a screwdriver.

Please be patient and if at all possible, listen to as much gear as you can to grow in experience. Lots of people here are very helpful and very wise, but there are also others who are simply telling you what they have done which is not the same as giving advice. It is sharing an experience that resulted in a positive outcome.....for them. I commend you on all of your study but if you don't back that up with the experience of actually listening to gear, hopefully all different kinds of gear, your head will soon be swimming with too many options to comprehend.

You need to find out what you prefer!

If you can listen to those Revels then you should. They are rarely sold and would have a good resale value.

But I want to reiterate that you owe it to yourself to experience a pair of magnepan speakers to see if they might be something you would consider. Many who have chosen these speakers never look back.

JLM · « **Reply #35 on:** 27 Dec 2011, 11:48 am »

Magnepans (Maggies) are dipole speakers, meaning that they radiate front and back. In their case it's simply a diaphram. By definition the back wave from a dipole is out of phase with the front wave which produces a large (versus discrete) image like what you hear from typical speakers.

If that appeals to you, a well built highly efficient alternative is available from Hawthorne Audio. The Silver Iris reachs 40 Hz from a 15 inch coaxial driver (tweeter in the middle). They make DIY extremely easy (about $400/pair). Their high efficiency allows you to use virtually any amplifier, yet they are professional drivers so they can take much, much more.

Photon46 · « **Reply #36 on:** 27 Dec 2011, 11:52 am »

As someone who used Magnepans for fifteen years (SMGa & 1.6qr) I would agree that they offer a lot of value. However, if you are on a budget, finding reasonably priced amplification that really lets them sing and reproduce believable instrumental timbre and good soundstaging is tough. As I listened to better and better quality gear and learned what I valued in musical reproduciton, I realized I wasn't getting much of what was possible and switched to dynamic speakers. I would now be reluctant to go back to Magnepans as I find them so picky about amplification. They do get the basic mix of believable musical realism right though. If opportunity presents itself, I'd definitely look into something like the previously recommended LSA-1 or Songtowers, as they would allow a much broader selection of reasonably priced amplification options likely to result in musical synergy IMO. There are so many screechy, badly voiced speakers in showrooms that when a noobie hears the Magnepan sound, they'll think they've found musical Valhalla. Many stop looking at that point and are happy. These decisions are highly subjective though, that's why listening to as much as you can before buying is so important.

Quiet Earth · « **Reply #37 on:** 27 Dec 2011, 03:41 pm »

I owned SoundLabs for many years and I would never reccomend them to someone who is just starting out, or to anyone who has a limited budget. One of the worse things you can do (as a beginner) is to fall in love with a pair of speakers that require a very special amplifier to make them sound good.

Rclark · « **Reply #38 on:** 27 Dec 2011, 08:33 pm »

Well I run a virtue amp and it was less than 500 and it drives the heck out of the mmg. I even have a big power supply I'd let go cheap if you go this route. Trust, you'd love it.

zeke · « **Reply #39 on:** 28 Dec 2011, 06:25 pm »

I would spend some time going to a few audio salons to decide what type of amps you may like best. Push pull tube amps, single ended triode tube amps, class a/b solid state, class a solid state, class d, otl, etc, etc, all sound a little different. And many a'philes over time will try them all, and may have more than one type amp at the same time.

As far as speakers, i would buy a relatively high efficiency speaker -- like Tekton, Zu, Klipsch, Omega, etc.
This will allow you to choose most any amp type now or later, because they can be driven by low or higher wattage amps. Iow, you will not have to buy a different speaker later if you want to try a low powered amp, whether tube or solid state.
I had a Tekton Lore, which is a great speaker and cost around 1000 new.

Low cost integrateds, or receivers, are an option if you have low funds. NAD, and Cambridge, for ex are pretty good options for starting out. Vintage gear is great, but are parts available for repair ?

my 2c