Class D amplifiers versus tube and solid state

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Rclark

Re: Class D amplifiers versus tube and solid state
« Reply #60 on: 30 May 2013, 12:53 am »
You know what they say about never saying never.

 I think that estimation is best left to the person who's heard everything. That said a lot has changed in just the past year. We can only assume this is not the end of progress for class d. The fact that class d and switching supplies are now on the table should tell you something.

That said, given distortion levels, quality of bass control, and some other factors, noise floor, one could certainly say tube amps are beaten.

wushuliu

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Re: Class D amplifiers versus tube and solid state
« Reply #61 on: 30 May 2013, 01:25 am »
LOL come on now. I love me some Class D, but tube amps are not 'beaten. You can not compare them in terms of distortion, etc etc to other types of amps. It's apples to oranges. My SimpleSE amp kicked @ss and I look forward to building another one no-holds-barred like Pez's. If tube distortion is wrong, I don't want to be right. A good tube amp is magic. But there's all kinds of magic. I'm more Tolkien, not so much Martin.

The best magic I ever experienced was an impromptu magician hanging in a hallway at the Magic Castle. Just a deck of cards and a cowboy hat.

All kinds of magic, man. All kinds.



neekomax

Re: Class D amplifiers versus tube and solid state
« Reply #62 on: 30 May 2013, 01:32 am »
I'm more Tolkien, not so much Martin.

We can never be friends.

 :P ha jk

G Georgopoulos

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Re: Class D amplifiers versus tube and solid state
« Reply #63 on: 30 May 2013, 01:40 am »
For me i love ss and tubes... :green:
If you go for class-d ,good luck to you my friend :thumb:

DaveC113

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Re: Class D amplifiers versus tube and solid state
« Reply #64 on: 30 May 2013, 01:52 am »
My SimpleSE amp kicked @ss and I look forward to building another one no-holds-barred like Pez's.


Try it with an Aikido front end instead of the ccs loaded 12at7. Huge improvement in performance!  :thumb:

Diamond Dog

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Re: Class D amplifiers versus tube and solid state
« Reply #65 on: 30 May 2013, 02:40 am »

I was listening to one of these babies last weekend - Pure Class D. No shame in it's game whatsoever. Paired up with PMC Twenty .24's. Just lovely.

http://esoteric.teac.com/download/I-03/Downloads/I-03_Brochure.pdf

D.D.

Rclark

Re: Class D amplifiers versus tube and solid state
« Reply #66 on: 30 May 2013, 02:41 am »
I am looking forward to.messing about with some though. Will go going all tubes on a headphone rig.

a.wayne

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Re: Class D amplifiers versus tube and solid state
« Reply #67 on: 3 Jun 2013, 09:53 pm »
I have been a tube-lover for my whole life, and believed until recently that tubes were the yellow brick road. I lost my beloved Atma-Sphere 100w triodes to a murderous ppp last Thanksgiving and soon discovered that repair costs would far exceed their value. As a retiree living on a pension, I had to look at alternatives. With a budget of around $2k, the used offerings all over the net looked unlikely to even come close to sounding as good. There were a few amps offered that probably would have been in the same league, but I built up my system to run on mono-blocks. My speaker cables are all short and their replacement with longer cables would reduce the amp budget. After a month of research, combined with too much self-pity,  I decided to take a big risk and try a pair of D-Sonic Class D amps using the latest cores from Pascal that earned a rare 'Blue Moon Award' from 6 moons.

I would like to say that they fit right into my system perfectly and sound every bit as good as the $7500 pair (1992 price) of OTL amps I had been enjoying since they were new, but it has not been all that simple. Right out of the box, they sounded great, but lacked the old tube magic. They are far more transparent than any other amps I have tried before and will reveal weaknesses and problems elsewhere in the system. After the first 100 hours, the magic started to show through, but so did other gremlins. Apparently, the EMI/RFI problems that plagued earlier class D amps have been mitigated somewhat through better design and materials, but are still around. It is not a feature to hear the ball-game through the speakers while listening to chamber music. I solved this issue by moving the power supply for my phono preamp 2 feet farther from the right side amp. The improvement here led me to reconfigure the whole system physically to further clean up the background. I finally got off my butt and dressed my cables by the book - every wire off the floor, crossing a right angles only, no coiled up excessive lengths, clean sockets & connectors, etc. The results of this effort really brought the amps to life, but they soon pointed out other areas of improvement as well. I reread the 6 Moons review, paying particular attention to the reviewers set-up report: "The basic rule with this amp is, treat it like a high-grade performer and it'll reward you in turn by sounding like one" (http://www.sixmoons.com/audioreviews/dsonic/2.html). This begat a round of power-cord trials that resulted in my putting my most expensive cords, PS Audio Extreme SC that cost $1k/m, on the amps and they really started to sing. But, the song was a little too bright in the highs, a bit muddy in the bass, classic symptoms of the complaints against Class-D amps. I couldn't understand it - they did everything so well, how could the designer and the reviewer have missed this? I still had a few days left in the trial period when it hit me that these are also the signs that he SRA/VTA is off. I went back on-line and reread a bunch of articles that attempt to educate the curious audiophile about the arcane skill of setting VTA by ear. I spent the next few days playing around with my JMW on-the-fly VTA adjustments and discovered that my whole system had become transparent enough to actually hear the differences that only a few thousandths of an inch could cause. My VTA setting process to date was no longer accurate enough to deliver optimum sound. I now measure all my records with a plastic caliper and adjust the VTA for every record. This was only a pain in the butt when I started. VPI uses a metric micrometer that makes the math pretty easy to do in your head, and the system really started to sound good, but still lacked that glorious magical tube sound.

It seemed that the project was doomed and I was prepared to send them back Texas for a refund, when I had an inspiration from rereading the review for probably the 50th time. He had put the review amps on some kind of expensive footers to reduce vibration and resonances. I had always discarded this branch of audiophilia as the lunatic fringe - expensive ways to tart up your gear for show. I bought some used Mapleshade triple-point footers and isol pads from Mapleshade, and improvised a platform using a round cutting board from the kitchen and an oak shelf from the nightstand in my bedroom for the other side. The improvement was astonishing! The soundstage tightened up especially in height and layering of the players. The bass definition and depth have dramatically improved. Background blackness, air, timbre all were enhanced. I became a believer in system and component support. My experiment with giving the amps crude isolation platforms led me to overhaul my entire system new dawns maple isolation platforms for the  amps, preamp, phono stage, power  conditioner, the remote power supplies for both preamps and the VPI SDS. The crown jewel is a massive 21"x27"x4" 65 pounder under my TT. I bought a bunch of used Eden Stones and Bearclaws and Herbie's footers on the web (thanks, starchild)The system sounds so good now that I never want to turn it off. I listen to record after record and don't think about anything but the music. The soundstage has become holographic, creating auditory hallucinations in every one who hears it. My children and grandchildren actually get why I do this. The bass is magnificent in depth and definition and is visceral. Percussion instruments are reproduced with all their complex overtones, transients and air going on forever.

I will not attempt to do a 'compare and contrast' analysis of these amps vs. the expensive tube amps they replaced. It would not be fair to judge my old amps as the system has changed substantially since they last played. Besides, they were more than 20  years old and probably could have used an update to sound their best. despite all my efforts, the D-Sonic amps still don't sound the same as the tube amps, with all their glowing magic, but they have developed a magic all their own. In My System, the gremlins usually associated with class d amps turned out to be caused elsewhere in he audio chain. The stunning accuracy of these amps can be a two-edged blade. But, if you are willing to set them up properly and feed them sweet music, the result can be superb.  :thumb:

Great post Mc and if for nothing more it has shown the light on why CLASS-d is such a controversial topic , why some love it while others loathe it , considering the setup time involved , its a must for retirees ..:)


Just kidding ....:)

Freo-1

Re: Class D amplifiers versus tube and solid state
« Reply #68 on: 3 Jun 2013, 11:07 pm »
Pls post your impressions. I heard both sphinx and the more expensive pharoah at audio show .sounded great in that room. Both are tubed pre amps mated with class D. Strong dynamics and trasnparency with some nice tubey warmth. wish i could hear them in my set up.
TB

What did you think of the two units?  What did the pharaoh do compared to the sphinx? 

mcbuddah

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Re: Class D amplifiers versus tube and solid state
« Reply #69 on: 4 Jun 2013, 03:13 am »
How about a little more detail on the setups, please. Which amps were they using? What kind of source material?

redjr

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Re: Class D amplifiers versus tube and solid state
« Reply #70 on: 30 Oct 2013, 05:09 pm »
I've built several class D amps using various modules from China.  To my aging wears they all sound terrific, and IMO there's not a nickels worth of audible difference between them.  I personally like the sound of class D and they've become my amp of choice in many of my rigs.  One thing to keep in mind.  For the budget minded, these amps provide a tremendous sound for the investment that cannot be beat.  And, there's just about any implementation size, wpc, etc that you can choose from.

On the commercial side, I've had a Pioneer Elite receiver - the SC-05 - that I bought on close out several years ago.  This particular HT receiver features the B&O ICE Power amp modules.  Believe me, I wasn't prepared for the sound that I heard.  While this receiver, was the best, I've ever been able to own, it blew me away with it's sonic characteristics.  It has such a smooth and silky sound.  It is rated at about 90wpc, but more than enough to fill any room I have.  I have been more than pleased with it's performance in my HT and when listening to stereo material.  The Pure Direct mode simple has to be heard to believed.  I've been a class D convert ever since.   :green:

Rick

RDavidson

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Re: Class D amplifiers versus tube and solid state
« Reply #71 on: 31 Oct 2013, 04:39 am »
I've owned a few class D amps, from Trends (1 amp), Virtue (2 amps), and now a Rotel RMB-1077 ICE amp. I got the Rotel, basically open box, about 2 months ago. I read a bunch of reviews (all very positive). The price was right. I liked the idea of having an efficient 7 channel amp, so I can easily bi-amp or even tri-amp  :o or just use it for HT. I know it doesn't have the latest tech or the most powerful ICE modules (though it is 100w x 7), but it sounds fantastic. It is warm and quite refined ; Probably the most refined Rotel I've heard. It is tube-like in the sense that it has warmth and body in the midrange, with no glare. The highs are somewhat polite, but still reasonably detailed. Bass is deep, tuneful, and powerful but not the most damped or tight. This is fine by me as I've heard amps that have too tight of bass control, which can make the overall sound tight and strained, rather than flowing and natural. This amp retailed for $2500, but can be had for about $900 or less when they crop up on the used market. 36% of original MSRP for 100w x 7 of refined ICE power tweaked by Rotel = Pretty sweet deal by my standards. :thumb: I've been in this hobby for 15+ years and have owned quite a few amps. My observations are based primarily on two amps I currently own which I believe are the best I've owned in their respective classes - Conrad Johnson MV-60 and First Watt M2.

veloceracing

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Re: Class D amplifiers versus tube and solid state
« Reply #72 on: 28 Nov 2013, 06:51 pm »
For what it's worth, I've gone through the natural progression of tubes and solid state and just chuckled when I first read about Class D gear.  My introduction to it was actually a non-Class D piece, the bel canto FM1.  I'm a tuner collector and thought I'd give it a try.  The experience was positive and I moved on to their CD2 just because of its many features.  Then ... I took the plunge: having changed speakers (Martin Logan Summits) and the amps required to drive them (Pass Labs X100.5), I found a bel canto Ref500S to drive a pair of Focal 1028Be's.  The experience was eye-opening: the match was a good one and the harshness and/or brightness I feared didn't exist.  As odd as it may sound, there was a hint of warmth in the combination.  At the end of the experiment I had converted my primary audio rig to all bel canto, down to the phono stage.  Here's the odd thing: whatever sonic shortcomings one can find in the ensemble are overridden (at least for me) by the fact that a total of seven boxes can fit in the same space as three ARC components; are powered with three power chords (the VBS-1 can power 3 sources) and produces no heat.

I still have my wonderful Dynaco Mk III's and an absolutely spectacular, upgraded C-J MV50 in the second system but that's used for trying things out.  Maybe I'm just getting old and sedentary but the bel canto stuff makes like easy.  And no, I do not work for, represent, sell or receive a paycheck from bel canto.

bladesmith

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Re: Class D amplifiers versus tube and solid state
« Reply #73 on: 29 Nov 2013, 09:26 pm »
I have several amps sitting around. I really enjoy my class D amp with a Dodd preamp or Dodd buffer.

The pre uses 6dj8's, but I can roll 6 volt or 12 volt thru the buffer, which allows me very different results..

And it is freaking dead quite... with a wonderful tube sound.

Very nice..

werd

Re: Class D amplifiers versus tube and solid state
« Reply #74 on: 8 Jan 2014, 04:45 pm »
I was listening to one of these babies last weekend - Pure Class D. No shame in it's game whatsoever. Paired up with PMC Twenty .24's. Just lovely.

http://esoteric.teac.com/download/I-03/Downloads/I-03_Brochure.pdf

D.D.

I own this now and its fabulous.

http://www.chapteraudio.co.uk/products/hardback/precis-250s/