[Freo-1]

I'm guessing your friend lives in the Ozarks  .

No, you would be wrong.  It's not Tom.  The people I am referring to are basically tube audio guys. 
 
The market for high end audio in general is pretty small to begin with, so I would be careful about claims that can't be substantiated. 

[bluemike]

There are no absolutes in this hobby
The minute you think you know you know sh*t

After 30 years of being in this hobby being open to new things makes the ride so much better
I don't expect to ever reach the holy grail

[bummrush]

I didn't mind trying class d but I had such high expectations for some reasons , it was probably more of a let down that way.

[Rclark]

No, you would be wrong.  It's not Tom.  The people I am referring to are basically tube audio guys. 
 
The market for high end audio in general is pretty small to begin with, so I would be careful about claims that can't be substantiated.

Well, you're welcome to come over and listen to mine any time you want. I will guarantee you that sterile is not applicable here. And that's a word that's been applied to older class d but just is not the case with these new amps, as you are well aware with the TBI, which errs on the side of sweet and colored, IMO.

BUt even those words don't tell the whole story. Same as saying bloated, slow, syrupy, etc might not tell the whole story about certain tube amps.

Point is, if you haven't heard these new amps, don't write them off based off old amps.

Some people seem to also have a vested interest in seeing these new amps.. not do so well, and that's understandable, small community as you say, but this is a VS thread. Just stating my opinion. When I get an H4n recorder, I'll prove that sterile, etc, is the furthest thing from the truth. Live and engaging, dimensional is more like it.

[medium jim]

Reza:

You have stated your opinion every chance and thread that you can...ad nauseous

Jim

[Rclark]

That may be so but I would say the same for you and your holy tube crusade. In fact you're the exact opposite of me in this thread, no experience at all with modern class d in your system but are an expert top to bottom on the subject, so.. That's where I leave that.

All I'm saying is try some. At least I'm interested in getting a tube amp.

And with that, back to tubes tubes, and more tubes.

[medium jim]

That may be so but I would say the same for you and your holy tube crusade. In fact you're the exact opposite of me in this thread, no experience at all with modern class d in your system but are an expert top to bottom on the subject, so.. That's where I leave that.

All I'm saying is try some. At least I'm interested in getting a tube amp.

And with that, back to tubes tubes, and more tubes.

Reza:

You sure make a lot of wild assumptions, and will as you say, leave it at that.  Have you not figured out that 99% of the AC Members are tired of the bickering between you and me....

Jim

[Rclark]

Jim you love bickering, after you leave this thread you're going to find someone else to poke at. Let's not pretend. And no assumptions, just a great memory.

Now I'm leaving it at that, I would suggest you be a gentleman, as befitting a moderator, and stop looking for fights.

[Crimson]

New class d is absolutely sublime compared to old class d.

Kinda like 991 PDK is better than 997 PDK. 

Everyone's an expert.

PS: everyone's a winner.

[Diamond Dog]

Reza:

Have you not figured out that 99% of the AC Members are tired of the bickering between you and me....

Jim

I'm thinking we've achieved the full 100% , actually. Kudos all around.

D.D.

[neekomax]

Little OT, but Jim, what exactly are 'w/agendas'?

 

[medium jim]

Little OT, but Jim, what exactly are 'w/agendas'?

 

Nick, I will send a pm...

Jim

[WC]

After reading a few threads I think we all know RClark's point of view.

My point of view is that there are good SS amps, good tube amps, and even some good Class D amps, but it is all a crapshoot because the amp is just one part of the audio system and everyone likes different music and has differing options as to what sound good to them. Holy crusades to justify one's purchases is getting a little tiresome. 

[Bigfishhk]

I am also curious about class D so to test the waters so I just ordered a Rogue Audio Sphinx integrated amp with a 12AU7 preamp in the front end. l should get it on monday or Tuesday and I will put it in my system and see what happens 

Pls post your impressions. I heard both sphinx and the more expensive pharoah at audio show .sounded great in that room. Both are tubed pre amps mated with class D. Strong dynamics and trasnparency with some nice tubey warmth. wish i could hear them in my set up.
TB

[bummrush]

That Rouge piece really looks to have promise and a good price.

[bluemike]

That Rouge piece really looks to have promise and a good price.

Being a tube guy all my life the Rogue paired with a tube pre is a very nice thing 

[mcbuddah]

I have been a tube-lover for my whole life, and believed until recently that tubes were the yellow brick road. I lost my beloved Atma-Sphere 100w triodes to a murderous ppp last Thanksgiving and soon discovered that repair costs would far exceed their value. As a retiree living on a pension, I had to look at alternatives. With a budget of around $2k, the used offerings all over the net looked unlikely to even come close to sounding as good. There were a few amps offered that probably would have been in the same league, but I built up my system to run on mono-blocks. My speaker cables are all short and their replacement with longer cables would reduce the amp budget. After a month of research, combined with too much self-pity,  I decided to take a big risk and try a pair of D-Sonic Class D amps using the latest cores from Pascal that earned a rare 'Blue Moon Award' from 6 moons.

I would like to say that they fit right into my system perfectly and sound every bit as good as the $7500 pair (1992 price) of OTL amps I had been enjoying since they were new, but it has not been all that simple. Right out of the box, they sounded great, but lacked the old tube magic. They are far more transparent than any other amps I have tried before and will reveal weaknesses and problems elsewhere in the system. After the first 100 hours, the magic started to show through, but so did other gremlins. Apparently, the EMI/RFI problems that plagued earlier class D amps have been mitigated somewhat through better design and materials, but are still around. It is not a feature to hear the ball-game through the speakers while listening to chamber music. I solved this issue by moving the power supply for my phono preamp 2 feet farther from the right side amp. The improvement here led me to reconfigure the whole system physically to further clean up the background. I finally got off my butt and dressed my cables by the book - every wire off the floor, crossing a right angles only, no coiled up excessive lengths, clean sockets & connectors, etc. The results of this effort really brought the amps to life, but they soon pointed out other areas of improvement as well. I reread the 6 Moons review, paying particular attention to the reviewers set-up report: "The basic rule with this amp is, treat it like a high-grade performer and it'll reward you in turn by sounding like one" (http://www.sixmoons.com/audioreviews/dsonic/2.html). This begat a round of power-cord trials that resulted in my putting my most expensive cords, PS Audio Extreme SC that cost $1k/m, on the amps and they really started to sing. But, the song was a little too bright in the highs, a bit muddy in the bass, classic symptoms of the complaints against Class-D amps. I couldn't understand it - they did everything so well, how could the designer and the reviewer have missed this? I still had a few days left in the trial period when it hit me that these are also the signs that he SRA/VTA is off. I went back on-line and reread a bunch of articles that attempt to educate the curious audiophile about the arcane skill of setting VTA by ear. I spent the next few days playing around with my JMW on-the-fly VTA adjustments and discovered that my whole system had become transparent enough to actually hear the differences that only a few thousandths of an inch could cause. My VTA setting process to date was no longer accurate enough to deliver optimum sound. I now measure all my records with a plastic caliper and adjust the VTA for every record. This was only a pain in the butt when I started. VPI uses a metric micrometer that makes the math pretty easy to do in your head, and the system really started to sound good, but still lacked that glorious magical tube sound.

It seemed that the project was doomed and I was prepared to send them back Texas for a refund, when I had an inspiration from rereading the review for probably the 50th time. He had put the review amps on some kind of expensive footers to reduce vibration and resonances. I had always discarded this branch of audiophilia as the lunatic fringe - expensive ways to tart up your gear for show. I bought some used Mapleshade triple-point footers and isol pads from Mapleshade, and improvised a platform using a round cutting board from the kitchen and an oak shelf from the nightstand in my bedroom for the other side. The improvement was astonishing! The soundstage tightened up especially in height and layering of the players. The bass definition and depth have dramatically improved. Background blackness, air, timbre all were enhanced. I became a believer in system and component support. My experiment with giving the amps crude isolation platforms led me to overhaul my entire system new dawns maple isolation platforms for the  amps, preamp, phono stage, power  conditioner, the remote power supplies for both preamps and the VPI SDS. The crown jewel is a massive 21"x27"x4" 65 pounder under my TT. I bought a bunch of used Eden Stones and Bearclaws and Herbie's footers on the web (thanks, starchild)The system sounds so good now that I never want to turn it off. I listen to record after record and don't think about anything but the music. The soundstage has become holographic, creating auditory hallucinations in every one who hears it. My children and grandchildren actually get why I do this. The bass is magnificent in depth and definition and is visceral. Percussion instruments are reproduced with all their complex overtones, transients and air going on forever.

I will not attempt to do a 'compare and contrast' analysis of these amps vs. the expensive tube amps they replaced. It would not be fair to judge my old amps as the system has changed substantially since they last played. Besides, they were more than 20  years old and probably could have used an update to sound their best. despite all my efforts, the D-Sonic amps still don't sound the same as the tube amps, with all their glowing magic, but they have developed a magic all their own. In My System, the gremlins usually associated with class d amps turned out to be caused elsewhere in he audio chain. The stunning accuracy of these amps can be a two-edged blade. But, if you are willing to set them up properly and feed them sweet music, the result can be superb. 

[SteveFord]

McBuddah,
Nice write up especially with temperatures starting to climb up into the 90s.

[mcbuddah]

Thanks for the kind words. It has become easy to get enthusiastic about these amps. Their astonishing accuracy has caused me to make a lot of changes to my system and my way of thinking about some things I had dismissed as lunatic-fringe at best, delusional madness, more likely.

The operation cost is definitely a bonus from these amps. I have fixed up my house to save energy - all new doors and triple-glazed windows with uv-repellant coatings and ceiling fans in every room. I can work the house to stay comfortable without ac until about 83-85 degrees(f). When running the atma-spheres with their 32 tubes, I was actually using it from February thru November. Even in winter, they heat up the living room - where the thermostat is located - so much, I had to manually override the setting to 90 deg. to keep the rest of the rooms warm. I went over the 2 years of data our local energy company keeps on-line and discovered that my electric bills went down an average of $70/month since they died. This projects to a 20 year saving of about $16,000.

It doesn't mean a thing, though, if it doesn't swing. The amps did sound good right out of the box, but I still had no idea why the 6moons review and Blue Moon Award raved about them until I got them up on at least a rudimentary isolation platform, away from powerful field-generating components, and using high quality shielded power cords. That's when they started to sound organic rather than electrical/mechanical. The music is natural and beautiful with a soundstage as big or as intimate as the recording has preserved. The bass has improved in depth and quality that I no longer want to mess with subwoofing, as I had planned for later this year.

 

[DaveC113]

mcb, good job getting the most out of your gear! Many do not take the time to attend to the details, then wonder why their system doesn't live up to expectations... thus begins the process of trading out gear, making mostly sideways progress along the way. Having constructed all my own gear from DAC output to internal speaker wiring, I believe the details are ALL important, and when addressed have a cumulative effect ending in superior sound reproduction and a system that is a lot of fun to listen to... at that point you can stop worrying about the system and just enjoy the music. That's a good place to be. 

I hear you on the subwoofer, but if your system isn't flat to at least the low 30 Hz range I'd still consider it.

Amps of all topologies can be good and it can all work out in the end as long as you're selecting gear that makes the right compromises for your own personal tastes, starting with appropriate speakers.

As far as class D, I think it has come a long way in recent years and is now starting to be a viable option for picky audiophile types. BUT, it seems to me it takes more tweaking and adjustments to get it right in a system, and class D amps respond more strongly to minor details than other topologies, which makes the details much more important. And finally, they aren't going to beat out a high end tube amp, no how, no way. It might take A LOT more money to obtain such a high end tube amp, so it's not a fair comparison in all ways, but for those looking for the best sound possible regardless of price and power consumption tubes are still king... imo of course.