[tabrink]

for me it's scotch that makes me articulate 

Yup.. it's the balanced scotch that makes me really opinionated. 

[jsaliga]

I'm not discouraged at all.  And I don't feel beat up. I'm old enough not to let these thing bother me. And I'm glad you're not taking it too seriously. I do think there's a point though,where nothing really gets resolved or illuminated , where people keep saying the same things over and over, trying to convince one another of the "rightness" of their points of view. For me I think that point has come in this particular post.

You make an excellent point.  People who strongly disagree seldom if ever come to terms and resolve their differences: immovable object meets irresistible force and all that.  In that regard I started loosing interest in this thread yesterday morning.  I spent the time on it because I had the time to spend.  But it is starting to fill up with what amounts to little more than spam, and unlike my email, there is no spam filter at AC to rid the topic of all the junk posts.  So I will probably be moving on to other things that are far more worthy of my time.

--Jerome

[GentleBender]

There most certainly is a SPAM filter. Just click on the "Profile" tab, then "Summary", then on the left you will see "Buddies/Ignore list". There you can click on "Edit Ignore list" and add whoever you want to keep things clean. 

I've only added one member that was just too abrasive, not bad for a online community. 

Not quite sure why people feel that other member's setups are not up to their standards. It is one thing if a member is asking how to improve the system, but beating them over the head when they find what makes them happy and shares with us doesn't make sense. Taking a week off of work to listen to many unheard LPs and hanging out on this forum sounds like a great week. I envy your great collection of records.

[neobop]

Not quite sure why people feel that other member's setups are not up to their standards. It is one thing if a member is asking how to improve the system, but beating them over the head when they find what makes them happy and shares with us doesn't make sense.

That's not it, not it at all.  It's the contention that after a certain mid-fi point, more money spent ("better" stuff) doesn't make that much of a difference.  This is upsetting to the powers that be, those with a vested interest, and those who aspire to, sell, or build big buck stuff. 

I'm surprised Jerome's sensibilities weren't questioned.  That's where the thought police ruined it for us. 
It never came out that Jerome is stone deaf and the joke is on everyone taking this thread seriously.   

Seriously, if this was posted on Asylum, Jerome would be ripped to shreds.  I must admit I skipped over some of the posts.  Can't say I understand someone's inability to discern phono stage differences, but that really isn't it.   It's the associated value judgment with those differences.   Aye, there's the rub.
Going beyond mid-fi is a two edged sword anyway.  The potential for greatness is offset by the potential for source material to be unlistenable garbage.   For less than good sources what you need is forgiving, and maybe an EQ, additional filters, a compressor/expander and some single driver speakers w/poor high freq. res.  There, did I upset almost everyone, especially FullRangeMan?   

I hope so.
neo

[jsaliga]

I'm surprised Jerome's sensibilities weren't questioned.  That's where the thought police ruined it for us. 
It never came out that Jerome is stone deaf and the joke is on everyone taking this thread seriously.   

While your comment was tongue in cheek, I tried to be as open and transparent as possible about my set up, my potential for bias, differences I perceive in equipment, my hearing, etc.  Much more so, I dare say, than most people talking about their audio experiences, and at least I am honest about it so I have no regrets.  My last trip to an audiologist was in September.  The report card was very good for someone my age.  I don't currently suffer from tinnitus, but I do have some slight high frequency hearing loss that is very common in people over 50 and I can't hear tones over 15KHz.  Now if someone wants to latch on to that and argue that this is where all of audiophile magic happens....so be it.  It would, however, be very interesting to know when the last time my detractors have had a hearing test and what their results were.

Seriously, if this was posted on Asylum, Jerome would be ripped to shreds.  I must admit I skipped over some of the posts.  Can't say I understand someone's inability to discern phono stage differences, but that really isn't it.   It's the associated value judgment with those differences.

It wasn't posted on the Asylum because I don't post there.  The place has a much higher concentration than AC of know-it-all smart asses who make a lot of noise and contribute very little meaningful content.  Having said that, it is also one of the reasons I don't regularly post here and haven't for three years.  I come back from time to time for brief stints, usually lasting less than a month, because there are some people here that I miss and respect and don't want to loose touch with them completely.  Usually a month is enough to cure me of that and I go away for a while.

The problem for these larger sites is that it is much more difficult to maintain a positive posting atmosphere, and a number of audio sites have a mob rules mentality and posting climate.  There are some folks who are into that sort of thing, they like the drama and enjoy lobbing verbal hand grenades at their adversary.  They are in it for the combat because they find it stimulating.  I don't think it is a big problem here because there is effective moderation that mostly works.  But it happens here too, probably more than it should.  In any event, that isn't my thing.  The place I spend most of my time at only has about 10 regular members.  In my three years there no thread has ever been locked, no one has ever been warned by the site admin for something they said.  It simply hasn't been necessary because the membership is so small and everyone knows everyone else.  Some might find that boring.  I find it relaxing and enjoyable, and that is what I most want from my forum time.  That is not to say we don't have disagreements.  We do.  We just don't feel the need to launch missiles at each other or get hyper-aggressive because we don't see eye-to-eye on a given topic.

As for why I don't hear big differences between phono stages...well, I did say that.  I am equally puzzled that some of you do hear big differences.  I am something of a jaded audiophile, no doubt about that.  Usually when someone says they hear subtle differences my translation is that there are no differences worth noting.  Anyone who has to strain to hear a difference probably is not hearing a difference and is responding to other stimuli, such as visual cues.  I also think that many audiophiles exaggerate, so when they say there are big differences I translate that mean there are actually small but audible differences.  Now if that is worth a ton of money to someone, well that is, as you say, purely a value judgment.

Sometimes people hear big differences because that is what they hear.  For example, I don't get all of the love for the Denon DL-103R.  It is one of the most musically unnatural cartridges I have ever heard.  It has poor spectral balance and the bass is so bloated that it is tubby.  It certainly is unique in my experience and I haven't heard anything else quite like it...not that I'd want to.

My value judgment is the following, in the order of importance:

1. Turntable
2. Tonearm and Cartridge
4. Phono stage
5. Cable

People are free to disagree with that, and I vaguely recall one person years ago who argued that the phono stage should represent about 60% of the total analogue system budget.  I'm fairly certain that I was  after reading that.  I am fully aware of arguments about carefully matching the arm, cartridge, and phono stage as an integrated system.  I don't agree with that.  Arm and cartrdige, yes.  Phono stage no, insofar as there there are properties in a phono stage that cannot be explained in engineering terms that unlock the magic of your cartridge and arm.  I do think it is important to use a phono stage with adjustable gain and loading so you can tune it for your cartridge, but beyond that I am not convinced that, all other things held equal, anything else matters all that much.  Again, there is the possibility of bias on my part and some are likely to have a field day with that.  Let them.  It will in no way alter the trajectory of my thinking.

Lastly, one of the points of the thread, which I think has been lost on just about everyone, is that I wanted to provide some information people can use as a data point.  I am not telling them how to use it.  So if someone where to read through this and look further into a Pioneer PLX-1000, and another person decided that his needs were better met with higher-end gear, then the thread will have served its purpose in both cases.  The idea was to provoke thought and discussion, but not outrage and acrimony.

Later.

--Jerome

[tmazz]

Lastly, one of the points of the thread, which I think has been lost on just about everyone, is that I wanted to provide some information people can use as a data point. 

Oh no Jerome, not a data point!!!!! 

That sounds like something that results from a measurement.

Better duck and cover. I fear another round of incoming. 

 

[timind]

Just popped in to A/C and found this thread. After reading it all I want to thank Jerome for posting his experience. Very well done, IMO.

[SteveFord]

I don't know why this would go on for 7 pages.
In one person's room with one person's equipment he posted his observations about how things worked out to his ears. 
Take the turntables in question and put them  in your system in your room with your ears and the results may be totally different.
At least that's how I read it.

[tmazz]

Usually when someone says they hear subtle differences my translation is that there are no differences worth noting.  Anyone who has to strain to hear a difference probably is not hearing a difference and is responding to other stimuli, such as visual cues. 

I'm not sure about that, but I have a simpler definition that has guided my equipment purchases. A subtle difference is something that I can hear (sometimes maybe with straining, but most often not), identify as being there and maybe even appreciate it being there, but is not enough to make me grab for my wallet. Whereas a significant difference is one that would make me willing to part with cash to have that difference occur in my system on a permanent basis. But keep in mind that at least for me making the jump from subtle to significant is not only a matter of better sound, but also of the price I would need to pay to implement it. The amount of SQ increase required for me to reclassify a change from subtle to significant is much less for a $100 item than it would be for a $2000 item.

[jsaliga]

I don't know why this would go on for 7 pages.

It will continue to go on as long I am posting to the thread.  I agree that more than enough has been said so this will be my last post.  It will die down shortly after I'm gone.

In one person's room with one person's equipment he posted his observations about how things worked out to his ears. 
Take the turntables in question and put them  in your system in your room with your ears and the results may be totally different.

I have said as much, several times in fact.    It's also possible that someone else could hear these turntables in my system and arrive at a completely different conclusion than I did.

All the Best,

--Jerome

[werd]

I'm not sure about that, but I have a simpler definition that has guided my equipment purchases. A subtle difference is something that I can hear (sometimes maybe with straining, but most often not), identify as being there and maybe even appreciate it being there, but is not enough to make me grab for my wallet. Whereas a significant difference is one that would make me willing to part with cash to have that difference occur in my system on a permanent basis. But keep in mind that at least for me making the jump from subtle to significant is not only a matter of better sound, but also of the price I would need to pay to implement it. The amount of SQ increase required for me to reclassify a change from subtle to significant is much less for a $100 item than it would be for a $2000 item.

This reminds me of my experience with my Acoustic Zen Adagios. Those speakers responded to amplifier changes excellently in the $2k to $6k range. Anything i put on there the speakers did something different. Going from a 4B to a 14B showed the performance increase. The 4B ,as good as it was, sounded shouty, it was no where near laid back in power compared to 14Bsq. When i put in other big performing amps the like a 400watt Chapter the performance increase was negligible or not significant. There were, i could hear it but.. meh. The Chapter was twice the price as the 14B and with those speakers not worth it. The ceiling performance was in the caliber of the 14B. Bryston28s forget it, waste of money imo.  But under the 14B any amplifier i used had a significant impact in change with those specific speaker (the Adagios)

Now having said that, i would not dare consider starting a thread titled.  Two paths taken - budget and audiophile - is there much of a difference? Based on the silly negligible differences of amps over 10k into $20k. That would make no sense because i am not identifying with the potential of the speaker. Its dumb in fact.

[wushuliu]

IME what bothers me most about vinyl forums is that there tends to be more over the top brand loyalty than with other components. In addition, most posters have very little experience with other turntables and associated equipment. Given how fiercely people defend their opinions you'd think that tcomparisons and 'shootouts' happened regularly like with amps, dacs, and speakers. Ohhh no. Not with the vinyl crowd. It's Rega or bust, SL-1200 or bust, VPI or bust, New or bust, I hate Hanpin blah blah blah. And very, very few actual comparisons to back the rhetoric up.

So I applaud Jerome for sharing his findings. I wish more vinyl folks did this.

[wushuliu]

And one thing that always seem to get swept under the rug is that everybody's hearing is different. I would love to someday be able to gather up a dozen or so hard core audiophiles, take them to an audiologist and get their hearing tested and then do a spectral plot of the response of their systems.

Bingo. This is an oh so obvious point and an oh so obvious suggestion. But why consider it when that would likely mean fewer thread wars about golden ears vs. placebo/dbx'ers? People like to argue on the internet (well, to be specific, men like to argue on the internet).

After 10 years of being active on various audio forums I've come to accept that most of us just like to hear ourselves talk and have our beliefs/predispositions reinforced - one of the great ironies of the 'open' internet.

[neobop]

And one thing that always seem to get swept under the rug is that everybody's hearing is different. I would love to someday be able to gather up a dozen or so hard core audiophiles, take them to an audiologist and get their hearing tested and then do a spectral plot of the response of their systems. I wonder how much of the personal taste choices they made in their systems could be correlated back to their own hearing response.  It could be that we all actually like the same thing and the differences in our systems are just compensations for our own hearing that get us to that same place. 

Bingo. This is an oh so obvious point and an oh so obvious suggestion. But why consider it when that would likely mean fewer thread wars about golden ears vs. placebo/dbx'ers? People like to argue on the internet (well, to be specific, men like to argue on the internet).

Not so obvious.  If for example, the sound of live music is the goal of reproduction, even though people hear differently, it either sounds live to them, or not. 

Happy New Year
neo

[*Scotty*]

wushuliu, when was the last time you tried to schlep a vinyl rig anywhere to do a shoot out. I have done this exactly twice in the last 40 years, most recently in about 1981. I brought my Demon DP 1100 with Denon 105S cartridge on it and my Denon MC head amp to my friends house to compare it against a Throrens TD115 mounted with a Dynavector 23R and and a Denon SUT. We liked the Thorens 23R combo with the Denon head amp combination best. The 23R had more life than the 105S and the SUT lost badly to the active Denon head amp. Of course he didn't have the money for the Denon head amp and I couldn' afford a Dynavector 23R and so it goes.
 At this point in time, I personally wouldn't haul around a finicky multi-thousand dollar vinyl rig anywhere to do comparisons. The downside risk is too high for my taste.
Scotty

[pumpkinman]

Hi everybody,

I almost never get involved in threads like this. Putting my thoughts down in writing has always been diff. at best. Some here do a terrific job.

1st off, thanks Jerome for sharing your observations with us. As always very very well written. But I'm here to speak about Jerome from I know of him.

There are a few here at A/C for who I have respect and Jerome is one. He is honest and direct (2 traits I admire) No "bullshit". 

He speaks of his friend who he considered generous. AFAIC Jerome is very generous and I have been the recipient of his generosity on more than 1 occasion. Jerome is a brother from another mother. 

After reading this entire thread this afternoon I was surprised at some of the replies and wondered if some even bothered to read his posts completely before responding.

Jerome I hope we have time for a phone conversation soon. I'd love a chat J-man

P.S. A few others others I'd like to give a shout out. Neopop and Wayner who have always replied to "all"my PM's" whenever I had a turntable or cartridge question and of course Tmazz.


Happy New Year all

Pumpkinman








 

[Triode Pete]

Hi everybody,

I almost never get involved in threads like this. Putting my thoughts down in writing has always been diff. at best. Some here do a terrific job.

1st off, thanks Jerome for sharing your observations with us. As always very very well written. But I'm here to speak about Jerome from I know of him.

There are a few here at A/C for who I have respect and Jerome is one. He is honest and direct (2 traits I admire) No "bullshit". 

He speaks of his friend who he considered generous. AFAIC Jerome is very generous and I have been the recipient of his generosity on more than 1 occasion. Jerome is a brother from another mother. 

After reading this entire thread this afternoon I was surprised at some of the replies and wondered if some even bothered to read his posts completely before responding.

Jerome I hope we have time for a phone conversation soon. I'd love a chat J-man

P.S. A few others others I'd like to give a shout out. Neopop and Wayner who have always replied to "all"my PM's" whenever I had a turntable or cartridge question and of course Tmazz.


Happy New Year all

Pumpkinman








 

P-Man,
Agreed...

Happy New Year!
Pete