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That is where I was headed if i had kept going. It's called shopping, finding cheaper gear that does what more expensive gear does. You can't do it unless you know how to shop or what you want from any particular piece. Not you, but there are people on this thread that have resigned to that with the only criteria "measurements". So if a piece measures the same it therefore will sound the same. That is the "agenda" of this thread. It is not to help new comers build and feel good about system building. That is a load of bullshit. It's only message is that all gear sounds the same when measures the same. If you pay more for that piece you are getting ripped off. Look at the title of the thread "Two Paths Taken - budget and audiophile - is there much of a difference?" Then the entire context of the thread is about price. Its an agenda driven CON JOB cleverly disguised as a humanitarian mission to help new comers with their hobby.
How much better is the Nottingham Space 294 than the Pioneer PLX-1000? Does it sound $6,800 better?Since having both of these tables set up and in use now for a while I haven't really given that a great deal of thought. I use the Pioneer PLX-1000 for most vintage stereo vinyl, and for all of my mono LPs (vintage and audiophile). I use the Nottingham Space 294 for all of my audiophile stereo pressings (I own enough of them to make having this turntable worthwhile). Before I bought the Nottingham, I was listening to my audiophile vinyl on the Pioneer and was completely satisfied. That being the case, the more expensive Nottingham does not sound all that much better than the Pioneer. I know that may shock some people, especially those who believe that cost closely correlates to performance. I have never held that view, and have long believed that in the audio game the point of diminishing returns is much lower than what is widely accepted by most audiophiles. My feeling is that if you are going to spend lavishly anywhere in your set up, buy the best pair of loudspeakers you can afford. Now, some might be quick to point out that I am biased and therefore my experience is nothing more than a self-fullfilling prophecy. It would be hard to argue otherwise. However, this is not a case where I bought a budget turntable and then argued against audiophile class gear that I haven't heard. Moreover, no one sent the Nottingham to me to try. I bought the turntable with my own money.Now ask me if I think the Nottingham turntable is worth the price of admission. Damn skippy it is. The turntable is over-engineerd, a work of analogue engineering art, and a fine performing turntable. I have no regrets whatsoever about the purchase. I didn't buy it because I was expecting it to leave the Pioneer PLX-1000 in the dust performance-wise.So my advice to people considering a turntable is this: 1) If you have $50,000 burning a hole in your pocket and won't miss the money then go for it, and buy yourself any one of a number of boutique audio turntables in that price class that catches your eye. It will give you and your audio friends a lot to talk about and it will certainly sound great. On the other hand, if you are expecting it to sound $47,000 better than someone's $3K rig then that probably is not going to be the case and you are likely to be disappointed. At that high of a price you zoomed past the point of diminishing returns 10s of thousands of dollars ago. 2) For someone who is trying to strech their audio dollars and has a modest amount of money to play with, don't fret. You don't need to spend a lot to get a lot in terms of performance. You do need to spend some, however. What I would advise against is over-extending yourself financially to get something like, say, an Origin Live Resolution when a direct drive like the Pioneer PLX-1000 and a solid performing MC cartridge like the AT-OC9/III are easily within reach. It might not win a beauty contest but it will damn sure make excellent sounding music.
No I really don't believe so. But I think it is fair to say that I do not hold to conventional audiophile wisdom on these matters -- meaning I don't agree that things always improve when you throw more money at your system. I have owned some expensive phono preamps over the years, including a $4,500 Aesthetix Rhea that disappointed me greatly given its cost, to other units that I did not feel delivered performance that was commensurate with their asking price. They were good, to be sure, but I found comparable and sometimes better performance in more sensibly priced units.I like the iPhono because:1. To my ears it does not color the sound2. It doesn't add noise to the signal path.3. Has adjustable gain up to 66db and adjustable loading from 47K to 33 ohms.4. Has a subsonic filter (I don't use it but I think it is a plus that the iPhono has it).5. Has six EQ curvesAlso, iFi Audio publishes the full specifications of the product including frequency response, dynamic range, and S-N ratio, etc.. So I give them props for that because it is something you seldom see.That said, it always pays to do your homework and to try before you buy if possible.
Does all this mean that I don't think there are audible differences between components? Of course not. I find that I can easily pick out differences -- in cases where differences actually exist -- between phono cartridges and speakers when I am listening to them side by side. But some audible differences, at least in my experience, are difficult for me to pick out in isolation, not being able to compare directly. For example, I used to own a pair of Omega Max Hemp single driver speakers. I owned them for about 3 years and was very, very happy with them. Then I changed them out for a pair of Audiokinesis Custom Planetarium Alphas. When the new speakers went in I immediately noticed that cymbals and hi-hats sounded more realistic then they did on my Omegas. Why then, did I not notice that the Omegas sound on these instruments was "lacking?" Because they were accurate enough to suspend my disbelief, that's why. And that is usually all that is required for enjoyable audio performance. What about differences between other components? I hear much less of a difference with preamps, power amplifiers, and phono preamps. Cables? Don't get me started on cables. If someone else believes they make a big audible difference then I'm happy for them. My experience doesn't agree and I'll leave it at that.
Absolutely. However, at this stage there is very little motivation for me to pursue such experiments. That is not to say the mood won't strike me at some point down the road. Hell, I was very happy with my old Garrard 401 rig but then out of nowhere decided that it was time for a change. So I won't say never and anything can happen.
Indeed they might. To insist otherwise would assume all listeners are the same.
Measurements are very important, but agree they are not the be all/end/all. For example, tube amps do not measure as well on the whole as sand amps, but many people find them to be more musical than SS amps. The technical principals of operation differences between tubes and SS amps account for the differences in sound. I have both tube and SS amp/preamp setups, and enjoy each for their individual strengths. However, to really get the best from tubes, you either have to spend a lot, or, go DIY to get the best from a price/performance aspect.
There is NO BEST just different. Let your ears be the judge in your own system.
As a dealer and audiophile I can can tell everyone that there are differences in performance of expensive gear and less expensive gear. period. However not always a difference that the price dictates. There are overachievers like Oddessey and Iphono, Belkin digital cable as some examples. The question is after hearing the small difference is it worth the money ? That is subjective and personal choice. From my 45+ years around audio it is putting together a system that has synergy. I see people spend crazy money yet only go sideways with not much of an improvement for money spent. It is a business remember that. The late Harry Pearson was instrumental in creating the high end. Which allowed IMO price jumps to crazy land. One suggestion was to relegate 10% of system cost for cabling. Well you go into a fancy brick and mortar sit down with a glass of wine and the show begins. It is easy to get caught up with the eye candy and lure of owning "the best" There is NO BEST just different. Let your ears be the judge in your own system. Directly compare a so called state of the art component as a reference to a lessor brand. you will find that there is a difference. So again is that difference worth it ? To each his or her own.charles
We're audiophiles, which implies we're willing to pay an insane amount of money for the slightest perceived improvement. We're only limited by our budget.
We're audiophiles, which implies we'reI'm willing to pay an insane amount of money for the slightest perceived improvement. We're I'm only limited by our my budget.
There, I fixed it for you. Sometimes the problem isn't so much what people say but rather how they say it.Your post reminded me of an audiophile friend that I have lost touch with several years ago, and now that I'm thinking about him I really miss him. I didn't know what his entire system consisted of, but I knew enough of the details to estimate that he probably had about $200K invested in hardware. He had two vinyl rigs, I don't recall the tables and arms but I do recall the cartridges: on one table he had a Dynavector XV-1S and on the other he had a Koetsu Coralstone. He also had a small collection of expensive cartridges: a few Lyras, an Ortofon Winfield, and a few others perhaps. The least expensive cartridge in his collection costs $4,000. He had more money tied up in cartridges than a lot of people spend on their entire system.But he never made a big deal out of it. He was as humble as they come. If someone bought something new for their system, no matter what it was and no matter how much or little they spent on it he was usually the first to congratulate them on their new acquisition. He only had words of encouragement and never made anyone feel that being audiophile was exclusive in any way. To him, you were an audiophile so long as you had a passion for music. I remember talking to him once and he said there were a few people he knew with very expensive systems that he did not consider audiophiles because they seldom ever listened to music.He was among the best ambassadors of the hobby I ever knew.--Jerome
What exactly are you accusing me of werd?
That you are trying to hide a condition you suffer from. That being "Tone Death"
But he never made a big deal out of it. He was as humble as they come. If someone bought something new for their system, no matter what it was and no matter how much or little they spent on it he was usually the first to congratulate them on their new acquisition. He only had words of encouragement and never made anyone feel that being audiophile was exclusive in any way. To him, you were an audiophile so long as you had a passion for music. I remember talking to him once and he said there were a few people he knew with very expensive systems that he did not consider audiophiles because they seldom ever listened to music.He was among the best ambassadors of the hobby I ever knew.--Jerome
I'm going to treat your post with all of the respect it deserves. Wait a moment, I'll be right back....I printed out a copy of your post and then crumpled it up into a tiny little ball. Then I flushed it down the toilet. By now it is somewhere in my septic tank, along with the rest of the shit.Now if you have something constructive to say by all means say it. But if you want to continue as you have been doing I can give you much better than I get.--Jerome
To him, you were an audiophile so long as you had a passion for music. I remember talking to him once and he said there were a few people he knew with very expensive systems that he did not consider audiophiles because they seldom ever listened to music.He was among the best ambassadors of the hobby I ever knew.
