OB SUBS FINALLY WITH SPATIAL M3

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Early B.

Re: OB SUBS FINALLY WITH SPATIAL M3
« Reply #60 on: 8 Oct 2022, 05:57 pm »
I'm thinking of ways to still utilize the servo section of the amp but not the amp itself at some point and get the NAD M22 to drive the subs. It would not even be fair to compare the two amps. Then I would have all the headroom I would need. Rythmik should simply make a class D amp with a solid switching power supply but I realize that is expensive to make one that will last. Anyway, that's my two cents on the subject. Simply not a audiophile match up in my world.

It's apparent that your system has one of two problems -- it isn't set up or connected improperly, or there's a mechanical issue. It's more likely the former. You've received really good guidance in this thread (and your wife provided the best advice!). If you follow this advice, you'll resolve your issue. To make matters worse, you're creating a senseless solution to a problem that can be easily remedied. 

Tyson

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Re: OB SUBS FINALLY WITH SPATIAL M3
« Reply #61 on: 8 Oct 2022, 06:04 pm »
It's apparent that your system has one of two problems -- it isn't set up or connected improperly, or there's a mechanical issue. It's more likely the former. You've received really good guidance in this thread (and your wife provided the best advice!). If you follow this advice, you'll resolve your issue. To make matters worse, you're creating a senseless solution to a problem that can be easily remedied. 

I agree.  With those subs you should easily be able to hit 100db down to 20hz.  The fact that it's only getting mid 80's indicates there's a problem with the setup.

dallaire1

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Re: OB SUBS FINALLY WITH SPATIAL M3
« Reply #62 on: 8 Oct 2022, 07:45 pm »
Well I asked Danny and got no response. Here is a video I just took. Take notice of the M33 volume, this is with NO DIRAC !!! I promise you. Direct hookup to the amp NO CABLE. The M33 and M3's just walk away... The amps simply cannot keep up period.  And I did take my wife's advice, thank you.

https://photos.app.goo.gl/oSfBuxygpDMy4hz87

dallaire1

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Re: OB SUBS FINALLY WITH SPATIAL M3
« Reply #63 on: 8 Oct 2022, 07:50 pm »
I should point out the clipping starts at 80% volume. Again, trying to be fair the Amp will produce 444 peak watts per channel driving the M3's being a 4ohm speaker, which is a very efficient combination I will admit.

Tyson

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Re: OB SUBS FINALLY WITH SPATIAL M3
« Reply #64 on: 8 Oct 2022, 07:59 pm »
I can see it's clipping.  It's hard to tell how loud that is via the video clip, but it sounds way, way lower than what I get out of my pair. 

Let's put it this way, we were watching Dune the other day at close to reference levels and my amps never clipped.  And that was FAR more bass and far more volume than what I heard in your video clip.  Which leads me to believe that there's a problem with the setup. 

2 things I'd check - 1st, are you using the RCA connectors or the speaker connectors into the subwoofer amps?

2nd, put on something with crazy low bass at high volume and look at the woofers.  They should be moving back and forth a LOT.  Like an inch or more.  Verify that the top and the bottom woofers are in synch (ie, both move forward together and both move backward together).

dallaire1

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Re: OB SUBS FINALLY WITH SPATIAL M3
« Reply #65 on: 8 Oct 2022, 08:38 pm »
I can see it's clipping.  It's hard to tell how loud that is via the video clip, but it sounds way, way lower than what I get out of my pair. 

Let's put it this way, we were watching Dune the other day at close to reference levels and my amps never clipped.  And that was FAR more bass and far more volume than what I heard in your video clip.  Which leads me to believe that there's a problem with the setup. 


2 things I'd check - 1st, are you using the RCA connectors or the speaker connectors into the subwoofer amps?

2nd, put on something with crazy low bass at high volume and look at the woofers.  They should be moving back and forth a LOT.  Like an inch or more.  Verify that the top and the bottom woofers are in synch (ie, both move forward together and both move backward together).

Yeah, the phone recording gives a skewed sense of volume in the video. At -20Db on the dial things start to sound live with lots of dynamics on most material, so I would say that's about my usual listening level 50 percent of the time.

I am hooked up using the pre amp RCA's with splitters from the stereo sub out's on the Int.

As far as picking a low bass track, I have played "Black Lutus, by Walton". Paul McGowen over at PS audio recommended this as one of his bass test to see how low a sub will play. With this track and NO DIRAC or CABLES this track will clip at -28Db on the dial ! that's not very loud and the woofer's...well they hit bottom hard. Anyone can stream this track and hear it. I just have the ability to see when the clipping occurs on the LED's, most people can't. I will be selling the amps and keeping the subs soon. I am looking for still a servo system with a different amp topography altogether. Don't know if I can find one or not but I will find a solution. Remember, where does the energy come from for correction to maintain linearity ? from the amp. Therefore the more correction needed in an OB design is really stressing this amp as MUCH eq and correction is needed. Again, JMHO

dallaire1

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Re: OB SUBS FINALLY WITH SPATIAL M3
« Reply #66 on: 8 Oct 2022, 09:25 pm »
Sorry, forgot to answer your last question regarding phase of all the sub drivers. Yes they are all in phase with both subs. I put them both together, side by side when I first hooked them up to verify. They all move forward and back at the same time regardless of their orientation in the H frame.

77SunsetStrip

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Re: OB SUBS FINALLY WITH SPATIAL M3
« Reply #67 on: 8 Oct 2022, 10:25 pm »
Yeah, the phone recording gives a skewed sense of volume in the video. At -20Db on the dial things start to sound live with lots of dynamics on most material, so I would say that's about my usual listening level 50 percent of the time.

I am hooked up using the pre amp RCA's with splitters from the stereo sub out's on the Int.

As far as picking a low bass track, I have played "Black Lutus, by Walton". Paul McGowen over at PS audio recommended this as one of his bass test to see how low a sub will play. With this track and NO DIRAC or CABLES this track will clip at -28Db on the dial ! that's not very loud and the woofer's...well they hit bottom hard. Anyone can stream this track and hear it. I just have the ability to see when the clipping occurs on the LED's, most people can't. I will be selling the amps and keeping the subs soon. I am looking for still a servo system with a different amp topography altogether. Don't know if I can find one or not but I will find a solution. Remember, where does the energy come from for correction to maintain linearity ? from the amp. Therefore the more correction needed in an OB design is really stressing this amp as MUCH eq and correction is needed. Again, JMHO

You mentioned splitters previously.  Do you mean RCA Sub out 1 from the M33 split into 2 RCA plugs for connection to L and R RCA in on Sub Amp 1?  If that is the case, will the Sub Amp work with just a single connection to the L channel? 

Are you setting the Sub Amp volume control say at midpoint and controlling overall system volume with the M33?  Have you tried reducing the Sub Amp volume to stop the clipping?  What happens?

Something that unexpectedly worked for me was to set my Sub Amp phase at 180.  At 0 there was almost no bass.  Maybe you will find somewhere between 0 and 180 phase improves or eliminates the clipping.

corndog71

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Re: OB SUBS FINALLY WITH SPATIAL M3
« Reply #68 on: 9 Oct 2022, 12:13 am »
You could also have a bad amp. 

NoahH

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Re: OB SUBS FINALLY WITH SPATIAL M3
« Reply #69 on: 9 Oct 2022, 02:07 am »
Stop using the sub out. Use the pre out. Sub out is a processed signal. Pre out is the raw. Splitter off of one sub output also means a weaker signal to each sub, but worse is that you are losing the stereo effect.

But that is REALLY likely to be the problem. Try pre.out.

Actually - this leads to the other stupid-easy test: drive the plate amps from a signal that is not the M33 and see what happens. Even just a 3.5mm to RCA cable from your phone would tell you a hell of a lot.

dallaire1

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Re: OB SUBS FINALLY WITH SPATIAL M3
« Reply #70 on: 9 Oct 2022, 12:41 pm »
I will do a little research on this and try it, have nothing to lose at this point.
Thanks

dallaire1

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Re: OB SUBS FINALLY WITH SPATIAL M3
« Reply #71 on: 9 Oct 2022, 12:47 pm »
Pre amp outputs 3.9 volts, 100 ohms
Sub outs 1 volt 680 ohms
Gonna try and find what Rythmik amps like for input voltage.

dallaire1

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Re: OB SUBS FINALLY WITH SPATIAL M3
« Reply #72 on: 9 Oct 2022, 02:54 pm »
Well this is with Dirac OFF, NO CABLES. Plugged into (pre amp outputs).  Settings on amp are (28hz mid control). I have tried just about everything. Has anyone tried to pull their amps to see if I'm the only one in the universe or do people not want to know ? Sorry, don't know what else to do or say about these amps driving this speaker design. It's great, just don't push them to realistic levels in my opinion. Danny, get the amp that will drive these things with some serious headroom, go class D with some real wattage and grip. Its a sub amp, even you wont be able to discern the difference. At least they will play with some authority.

https://photos.app.goo.gl/PhB9eT79jdYt8WWG7

dallaire1

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Re: OB SUBS FINALLY WITH SPATIAL M3
« Reply #73 on: 9 Oct 2022, 03:13 pm »
Sub amp volume setting are 5 clicks past center.

NoahH

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Re: OB SUBS FINALLY WITH SPATIAL M3
« Reply #74 on: 9 Oct 2022, 03:31 pm »
Sub amp volume setting are 5 clicks past center.

Honestly, I keep forgetting that you are watching the clipping led like that, so input signal stuff won't be the driver.

I don't have that plate amp model - I have the 2 channel ones, and I think those are not the same circuit class, but I will try this later and check indicators.

The drivers are out of phase in each chassis since they are reversed, right?

77SunsetStrip

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Re: OB SUBS FINALLY WITH SPATIAL M3
« Reply #75 on: 9 Oct 2022, 04:37 pm »
In the latest video it appears there are 2 LEDs flashing on each amp.  Is that correct, there are 2 LEDs on each amp to indicate clipping?  So there is no clipping indicator on the user control side of the Amp.  That seems like an indication that should be on the user control panel, not hidden.   Would be great if someone with the same GR Research setup could verify if their LEDs ever blink.

Sorry you are having so much trouble.  This seems like an issue that needs to be addressed by Rhythmic.  Unless multiple GR customers speak up about the same problem, not a systemic issue for Danny to fix.  I assume you have studied everything on the Rhythmic site.

dallaire1

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Re: OB SUBS FINALLY WITH SPATIAL M3
« Reply #76 on: 9 Oct 2022, 04:44 pm »
I have read everything I can find. And yes all drivers are pushing and pulling in unison.

dallaire1

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Re: OB SUBS FINALLY WITH SPATIAL M3
« Reply #77 on: 9 Oct 2022, 04:55 pm »
I really think this amp would be MORE than sufficient if it were not an OB design. The Servo portion in the OB design is taxing the amp with a serious amount of correction power consumption that otherwise could be used to drive the speakers. Disconnect the servo leads and see what your woofers do. They will reach X-Max with VERY little power, this is obvious. If the same amp were in a sealed enclosure or ported for that matter, it would help control the woofer with just the compliance of the enclosure not even needing the servo portion for the most part. I'm sorry but this amp is not designed to play at realistic levels without clipping, it can't, it was never engineered for loud playback with an OB sub design. IMHO

dallaire1

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Re: OB SUBS FINALLY WITH SPATIAL M3
« Reply #78 on: 9 Oct 2022, 04:56 pm »
Sorry, to answer your question. Yes both lights are flashing when driven to 80% volume give or take. I believe one is the input stage, the other the output stage ? Danny ?

Danny Richie

Re: OB SUBS FINALLY WITH SPATIAL M3
« Reply #79 on: 9 Oct 2022, 05:36 pm »
So these amps/Speakers are not a good fit for anyone intending to use bass management in their rigs ??

A MiniDSP or bass management system is not needed with the servo subs. All of the control you need is right there built into the amp already. You also never what stuff like that in the signal path with your main speakers.