[Guy 13]

Hi all Audio Circle members.
Just finish a one hour listening session and here are my findings/comments.
First my Decware SE84-C+
I’ve replaced the EH 6922 with a Sylvania JAN and I could detect a small sound improvement in sound, mainly in the highs.
Then, I’ve replaced the EH EL84 with a pair of Toshiba EL84.
What a great deception.
I had to put the volume to maximum to get the same level as with the EH. With the EH the volume was at 1/3.
In addition, the sound was completely muffled, no highs, very little mids.
Terrible, unlistenable.
I sent a message to TC Tubes to see what they can do for me.
My problem is that returning the tubes will cost me more than what’s they are worth.
For the 5AR4 it’s the same brand/model as I had, therefore no use to swap them.
For the Sylvania 12AX7 for my Bellari VP-129 there was a small improvement against the Ruby brand.
I have to solve a “ hum “ problem.
Later, when budget permit, I would like to change the Bellari for the Bottlehead Reduction phono pre-amp. But that’s later, much later.
So that’s it, not big improvement and one big deception.
I hope I will be luckier with my Bottlehead Crack.

Guy 13
 
 

[Ericus Rex]

Hi Guy,

You have to give new tubes at least 20 hours of burn-in time before you can compare them to what you've been using.  I've found that their sound can change quite a bit in that time.  Play your new tubes for 20 hours or so then put the old tubes back in and see if the difference is as subtle as you're now experiencing.

As for the EL84, it does sound like there may be a problem with them.  Their lack of gain, in particular, worries me.  I think I'd also try burning them in for a few hours and see if their sound and output level change.  If they show no improvement then I would label them defective and I would hope TC Tubes would help you.  They've been good folks in my numerous dealings with them.

Good luck!

[Guy 13]

Hi all Audio Circle members.
Just got a reply to the e-mail I sent to TC Tubes
and they asked me for more details on the problem with my Toshiba EL84,
however, they also told me that they will accept the return for credit
or exchange way past the 30 days return policy,
since it's not easy for me to return the defective tubes
via some friends/relatives.
This morning I am trying one more time the tube to make sure they are defective
or should I say, they are not performing as they should.
If TC Tubes exchange the Toshiba something else, what would you suggest.
How about Mullard or JJ ?
I am hope to get something with a better sound than the EH, not that the EH don't sound good, it's just that I want to have something a little better.
I am trying to get the most out of My Decware SE84.
For now, I only have experience with EH and Sovtek.

Guy 13

[shoot]

Hi all Audio Circle members.
If TC Tubes exchange the Toshiba something else, what would you suggest.
How about Mullard or JJ ?
I am trying to get the most out of My Decware SE84.
For now, I only have experience with EH and Sovtek.

Guy 13

EL84 I suggest telefunken el84,it's expensive but absolutely sounds great.VALVO or siemens el84 are also nice options.If your budget is limited Russia made genalex goden lion el84 is not bad.
12AX7 I suggest brimar black plates square getter 12ax7.none of US made 12ax7 sounds nice,they are cheap but not worth to invest.philips or valvo ecc83 with declined D foil getter or mullard square getter ecc83 are also nice options.they are expensive but worth to invest.

[Ericus Rex]

EL84 I suggest telefunken el84,it's expensive but absolutely sounds great.VALVO or siemens el84 are also nice options.If your budget is limited Russia made genalex goden lion el84 is not bad.
12AX7 I suggest brimar black plates square getter 12ax7.none of US made 12ax7 sounds nice,they are cheap but not worth to invest.philips or valvo ecc83 with declined D foil getter or mullard square getter ecc83 are also nice options.they are expensive but worth to invest.

Guy had a very meager tube budget.  Nothing you've recommended was in his price range...or even close to his price range.  This left only new production and American made.  As an owner of all the 12AX7s you mention (except the Valvo) and the coveted Telefunken smooth plate 12AX7s, I have to strongly disagree with your assessment about the quality of American tubes.  My Raytheon Blackplates are, IMO, every bit as good as any other 12AX7 in my stash, including my Teles.  And the other American tubes I own far outperform the new production in every respect except possibly noise (the Euros usually fail here as well).  But I'll take great sound over a little tube rush any day.

[Guy 13]

EL84 I suggest telefunken el84,it's expensive but absolutely sounds great.VALVO or siemens el84 are also nice options.If your budget is limited Russia made genalex goden lion el84 is not bad.
12AX7 I suggest brimar black plates square getter 12ax7.none of US made 12ax7 sounds nice,they are cheap but not worth to invest.philips or valvo ecc83 with declined D foil getter or mullard square getter ecc83 are also nice options.they are expensive but worth to invest.

Hi shoot and all Audio Circle members.
What do you think if I stretch my budget to put my hands on the following tubes.
http://www.thetubestore.com/Tubes/EL84-6BQ5-Tube-Types/Siemens-E84L-EL84
For the other tubes, I am satisfied with my new batch of USA made NOS tubes.
Since my second listening session with the Toshiba was again deceptive, I will contact TC Tubes to see what the can suggest that is available.
Thanks for your help.

Guy 13

Some only swear by USA made NOS tubes,
some other only swear about European made tubes.
Which group hold the all the truth,
only the truth and nothing else but the truth?
 
OUPS... I really need to change my reading glasses or try to be more attentive when I read something.
I thought the Siemens was 69 $ per pair. Well, was too good to be true.

 

[Guy 13]

Guy had a very meager tube budget.  Nothing you've recommended was in his price range...or even close to his price range.  This left only new production and American made.  As an owner of all the 12AX7s you mention (except the Valvo) and the coveted Telefunken smooth plate 12AX7s, I have to strongly disagree with your assessment about the quality of American tubes.  My Raytheon Blackplates are, IMO, every bit as good as any other 12AX7 in my stash, including my Teles.  And the other American tubes I own far outperform the new production in every respect except possibly noise (the Euros usually fail here as well).  But I'll take great sound over a little tube rush any day.

Hi Ericus Rex and all Audio Circle members.
I am glad you posted your opinion.
Why all European made stuff is always better than American made stuff ???
I am a Canadian, but I always try to buy Canadian or American made stuff.
Niteshade Audio, Decware, Bellari, Spin Clean, Omega and some others.
I will wait for TC Tube recommendations and post the result to get your opinion.
Thanks for barging in. (The old French Canadian that I am, hope's that's the right way of saying it?)

Guy 13

[shoot]

Guy had a very meager tube budget.  Nothing you've recommended was in his price range...or even close to his price range.  This left only new production and American made.  As an owner of all the 12AX7s you mention (except the Valvo) and the coveted Telefunken smooth plate 12AX7s, I have to strongly disagree with your assessment about the quality of American tubes.  My Raytheon Blackplates are, IMO, every bit as good as any other 12AX7 in my stash, including my Teles.  And the other American tubes I own far outperform the new production in every respect except possibly noise (the Euros usually fail here as well).  But I'll take great sound over a little tube rush any day.

Hi Ericus,Thanks for your opinion.
I just want to make him understand  nice sound cost much,if I don't have much budget,I'd rather use the amp original tubes.
As to raytheon black plates 12ax7,I didn't have. but i have raytheon black plates square getter 12au7,for me It sounds good but still not good enough to compare with top european 12au7(every individual's favorites are not same,that's just for me).But there's an exception, tung-sol black glass 12au7 sounds great,it can compare with top european 12au7.unfortunately tung-sol didn't made same type 12ax7.here are some of my tung-sol 12au7 collection

[Ericus Rex]

Hi Ericus,Thanks for your opinion.
I just want to make him understand  nice sound cost much,if I don't have much budget,I'd rather use the amp original tubes.
As to raytheon black plates 12ax7,I didn't have. but i have raytheon black plates square getter 12au7,for me It sounds good but still not good enough to compare with top european 12au7(every individual's favorites are not same,that's just for me).But there's an exception, tung-sol black glass 12au7 sounds great,it can compare with top european 12au7.unfortunately tung-sol didn't made same type 12ax7.here are some of my tung-sol 12au7 collection

It is true, great tubes cost money.  You can't buy a wine that tastes like Chateau Mouton Rothschild for $20.  And if the American tubes ever become the same price as their Euro counterparts I would have to stop recommending them in favor of the usually (but not always) better sounding Euros.  But right now, American tubes are great bargains and I still maintain that they are better tubes than comparably priced current production.

[Guy 13]

Hi all Audio Circle members.
Yesterday I did more than two hours of listening with my Toshiba 6BQ5
and the sound is still the same, no change, no improvement.
I will do some more (painful) listening, just in case, but honestly,
I don't think I will hear any improvement.
TC Tubes wrote back to me and told me that they checked the tubes before they left their place
and tested 100% good.
They wrote me that maybe my EH tested 170% ? ? ?
They are ready to give me a full credit,
but they will have to wait until someone can bring them back for me to the USA.
They also decline to recommend/suggest any other brand of tubes,
until they can put their hands on the Toshiba.
That might take up to three months.
Am I ready to wait that long, to hear my Decware improve in sound?
The Electro Harmonix are good, but I want better.
I am reluctant at buying anything else.
NOS USA Made or European, new Russian ? ? ?
I don't want to spend more money,
my bank account is running low, almost dry.
If I had some kind of guaranty that the next pair of tubes would sound better, I would not hesitate,
but such a warranty does not exist.
Does not exist, because I am on planet Vietnam.
For now, I will try to enjoy what I have.
I am installing a pair of Omega 7F extended range drivers to replace the Audio Nirvana 8" extended range drivers.
I quick test revealed that the Omega sounds better, less aggressive sound with plenty of details, however, they are 93db vs 95db for the AN.

Guy 13 

[Ericus Rex]

TC doesn't seem to have anything to exchange for your Toshibas so you should go for a full refund and buy your EL84 pair elsewhere.

[Guy 13]

TC doesn't seem to have anything to exchange for your Toshibas so you should go for a full refund and buy your EL84 pair elsewhere.

Hi Ericus Rex and all Audio Circle members.
I did not see on TC Tubes website anything for the EL84/6BQ5 and
they told me that they don't want to suggest anything until they can see what's wrong with the tubes.
That means it will/might take several months before the tubes reach them.
(End of July)
I will ask them for a full credit,
but I don't think they will give it to me until they have
the Toshiba tubes on hands.
In the mean time, I will enjoy as much as possible my EH tubes,
because I don't want to make the same mistake, even with NOS tubes.
Even if an Audio Circle member is using a brand/model and highly recommend what he's using, I have been burnt, therefore, I'm scared even with cold water.
If you understand what I mean.

Guy 13
 
 

[Freo-1]

Guy, contact Jim McShane and get the Re-Issue Gold Lion EL84 from him.  He is honest as the day is long, and burns in the tubes to get rid of wacky ones.  You can't go wrong.

[Guy 13]

Guy, contact Jim McShane and get the Re-Issue Gold Lion EL84 from him.  He is honest as the day is long, and burns in the tubes to get rid of wacky ones.  You can't go wrong.

Hi Freo-1 and all Audio Circle members.
Thanks for the name.
I have already sent an e-mail to Jim to check with him price and availability.
Will let you know what will happen.
Thanks again.

Guy 13
Of course, I would prefer that TC Tubes send me new tubes
using the money they already have.

[Adriano]

I think maybe 4 version.
The first version is the earlist which produced in 1952,No edges on mica,plate had one hole and one middle bar,black mercury,straight D getter.(the first one on the left)
Second version No edges on mica,plate had one hole and one middle bar,silver mercury,straight D getter.
third version Four edges on top mica,plate had one hole and one middle bar,straight D getter.
fourth version Four edges on top mica,plate had two holes and two bars,wing D getter.

Dear Adrianc and Shoot
May be there is an earlier type:
Black mercury, disc getter, date code 4L TKA...

[Adriano]

I think maybe 4 version.
The first version is the earlist which produced in 1952,No edges on mica,plate had one hole and one middle bar,black mercury,straight D getter.(the first one on the left)
Second version No edges on mica,plate had one hole and one middle bar,silver mercury,straight D getter.
third version Four edges on top mica,plate had one hole and one middle bar,straight D getter.
fourth version Four edges on top mica,plate had two holes and two bars,wing D getter.




Left: 4L TKA 1951.9, DISC getter, WELDED Getter, Black mercury
Right: triangle K TKB 1952.10, 45 digree D getter, Welded getter

[shoot]

Dear Adrianc and Shoot
May be there is an earlier type:
Black mercury, disc getter, date code 4L TKA...

Hi Adriano!It's the same type with the tube which i posted in 708,it was produced in 1951,by philips venolanda (holland) factory not valvo coin base.

[shoot]

I think maybe 4 version.
The first version is the earlist which produced in 1952,No edges on mica,plate had one hole and one middle bar,black mercury,straight D getter.(the first one on the left)
Second version No edges on mica,plate had one hole and one middle bar,silver mercury,straight D getter.
third version Four edges on top mica,plate had one hole and one middle bar,straight D getter.
fourth version Four edges on top mica,plate had two holes and two bars,wing D getter.


Left: 4L TKA 1951.9, DISC getter, WELDED Getter, Black mercury
Right: triangle K TKB 1952.10, 45 digree D getter, Welded getter

the right one is same with what i posted in 731,philips copenhagen factory made,not valvo coin base.

[Guy 13]

Hi Freo-1 and all Audio Circle members.
Jim got back to me quickly and he told me,
I quote:
Genalex N709/EL84 do really well in the Decware gear,
And he also said and I quote again:
I think it will be a significant improvement.
A pair of them will be $59.50 plus $7.00 shipping to
any US address.
Un-quote.
The price for the Genalex is within my budget, actually it’s more expensive by 11.50USD no big deal !
If I get a full refund for my Toshiba tubes, I will stay more or less within my budget, which is very important because I am going toward the bottom of my bank account.
The only little problem is that I can only send back the Toshiba in four (04) months from now.
As usual I have to use someone doing a round trip USA – Vietnam.
I think I will rob a bank to get some money to do the transaction this week.
Therefore, my wife’s aunt that’s coming to Vietnam in April, will be able to bring the Genalex with her and bring back the Toshiba when she returns to Chicago.
That’s good, but I have to be super patient.
Which is something I have to learn since the first day I set foot in Vietnam 18 years ago?
I found a one Russian tube, no name, not even erased, with only a model number on it, it’s something like 5N15N
I don’t have in my computer’s font the up-side down U to replace the N.
I think that tube came with the amplifier, was supplied by Decware.
I drag my sweet and sexy wife, well, more sexy than sweet, to use her ears to do some evaluation between the Russian no name and the Electro Harmonix.
The Russian on left channel and the EH on the right channel.
Which one sounded better?
Believe me or not, the Russian, but not by much. I can say buy 5 to 10%, but the EH had a little more weight and the no name Russian had a little more clarity.
I am getting tired to try to find the best of the best.
I will buy the Genalex and then, better or worst, I will end my search for the best sounding of everything.
I am tired and I am at the bottom of my money bag.
My boss, my minister of finance, my… Sweet wife told me that my set up sound good, she did not say: Sound very good, but she said the sound is very natural, especially when I played a CD with a solo of Asian guitar.
The system is very revealing with small ensemble.
Well that’s it for now.
Sorry for being such a pain in the next with all my problems.

Guy 13
 

[Adriano]

Hi Adriano!It's the same type with the tube which i posted in 708,it was produced in 1951,by philips venolanda (holland) factory not valvo coin base.

Yes, you are right.