The easy way to make a $3000 CD player

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zybar

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Re: The easy way to make a $3000 CD player
« Reply #40 on: 18 Jan 2010, 06:42 pm »
Anyway I thought false advertising was illegal, but I'm no lawyer.

Please explain where false advertising took place?

The product is a Lexicon product (doesn't matter that inside it is an Oppo player) and it provides the advertised functionality.

George

stereocilia

Re: The easy way to make a $3000 CD player
« Reply #41 on: 18 Jan 2010, 06:42 pm »
Wasn't there a contact lens manufacturer who was "rebranding" their own two-week frequency lenses as daily lenses and charging more for them?  I think there was a class action lawsuit or a settlement or something of that nature.  I'm trying to think about how this situation is that much different.

bummrush

Re: The easy way to make a $3000 CD player
« Reply #42 on: 18 Jan 2010, 06:46 pm »

I think the main outrage is the multiplier.  No one on this forum had previously seen a rebadged component priced at 700% of the original
    the ABOVE is the whole point ,only point,and also theres no way that its not a clear ex. of a company selling something clearly deceptive,do all the lawyer speak u want to,it's a f upped thing to do to a consumer

trebejo

Re: The easy way to make a $3000 CD player
« Reply #43 on: 18 Jan 2010, 06:53 pm »
A lawsuit is an excellent idea.

1. It will discourage retailers from selling the unit, since they may have to share some responsibility if the verdict goes against them.

2. It will publicize what Lexicon is doing. With any luck, it'll shut them down.

3. It will discourage other companies from doing it. "We don't want to be Lexicon."

4. Consumers obviously got screwed. This is the only shot they have left, since the "voting with your wallet" answer comes too late for them.

5. If what Lexicon did is not illegal, it ought to be. This is how good laws get passed.

There are more good reasons, I'm sure. I can't think of a single good reason to let a corporation do such a thing. Why encourage fraud? Fraud should be discouraged and laws should do so.

sts9fan

Re: The easy way to make a $3000 CD player
« Reply #44 on: 18 Jan 2010, 06:56 pm »
This is not fraud.  You sell whatever you want for however much you want.  OEM is a normal practice to fill out a line. 

zybar

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Re: The easy way to make a $3000 CD player
« Reply #45 on: 18 Jan 2010, 06:59 pm »
Ok, one last time...

There is no fraud and there is no false advertising in this case people (again, assuming they have a valid agreement in place with Oppo).

The fact that nobody (including me) likes the price that Lexicon is charging for the product, doesn't make what they are doing illegal in any way.  Lexicon can charge anything they want for their products (that includes OEM's, partnerships, and in house designs).  It up to the consumer to decide if what they are asking is worth it.

George


trebejo

Re: The easy way to make a $3000 CD player
« Reply #46 on: 18 Jan 2010, 07:07 pm »
Geez, I sure wouldn't want some people here deciding what is and is not fraud.

As far as I'm concerned, it is fraud. I'm sure most people would agree. Why protect the fraudsters? Why raise a finger for them? There is nothing good there to defend.

Let the fraudsters sink. Sue their ass, oneinthepipe.

Bear

Re: The easy way to make a $3000 CD player
« Reply #47 on: 18 Jan 2010, 07:15 pm »
Buyer Beware"  this is what drives a free market to be efficient with-out over legislation.  The companies "brand" will be tarnished.  "Fool me once shame on me....."    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caveat_emptor

The fact that they made what appears to almost no attempt to "improve" modify the product and increased the price by such a multiple is laughable, disgusting, and RIDONCULOUS.  I would speculate that OPPO got a pretty penny for "licensing",  they are probably not completely innocent in the matter.

As for Lexicon's claim that it is "improved"(if in fact they made the claim) or "modified" is valid in a sense that it is aesthically altered.

I imagine that Lexicon is regretful of the situation as they have diluted their brand and embarrased themselves.  The damage has been done and other companies will certainly take note and will strive to improve upon a design in lieau of rebadging it.  Another victory for a freemarket.

turkey

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Re: The easy way to make a $3000 CD player
« Reply #48 on: 18 Jan 2010, 07:17 pm »
"Modified" and "improved" are relative terms. I don't think you can go after them for describing what they did this way.

What would be fraud is if they denied they were using the Oppo as a base.

I don't like their price, and I wouldn't want to buy one of their products, but I could say the same about a lot of stuff.

srb

Re: The easy way to make a $3000 CD player
« Reply #49 on: 18 Jan 2010, 07:18 pm »
From the Lexicon Website:
 
Providing unparalleled video quality, the BD-30 incorporates Anchor Bay’s award-winning Video Reference Series (VRS) technology, and delivers a picture that is cleaner, smoother, true-to-life and free of artifacts. With exceptional picture and sound quality along with fast loading and response times, the BD-30 delivers an incredible sound stage and an immersive surround experience.

There's nothing misleading or untrue there.  Still, if it were me, I would have thrown $1000 worth of retail upgrades into the $500 carcass and still be tickled pink to put a $3500 price tag on it.[/]

At least they would have something in it to differentiate it from the Oppo, and could probably rightfully publish better specs, whether or not someone could hear or see the improvement.  As it stands now, depending on how far this revelation spreads, they look quite foolish and deceptive.  Although this will have little effect on Harman International, it could certainly impact the Lexicon subsidiary.
 
Steve

Packfill

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Re: The easy way to make a $3000 CD player
« Reply #50 on: 18 Jan 2010, 07:26 pm »
I think what Lexicon did deserves maximum exposure.
Could somebody move this thread to a more general interest circle?

chadh

Re: The easy way to make a $3000 CD player
« Reply #51 on: 18 Jan 2010, 07:29 pm »

At the risk of outraging everyone, I'll offer another point of view...

As has been suggested, this type of rebranding practice is common.  The economics literature refers to it as a form of price discrimination.  When you have two types of consumers (think of them as ones who are rich and brand conscious, and others who are less wealthy and driven to seek high "value"), it is natural for the seller to try to satisfy both groups' demands simultaneously by creating two distinct products and selling them at distinct prices.  Here, we see the seller satisfying the desires of those seeking an ostentatious brand, while simultaneously satisfying those who seek "value" by offering the same product in different clothes.  This is good news, as it leads to a greater number of people being satisfied.

Obviously, the payoff for the seller is that he gets more revenue.  But it's also good news for the "value" shopper.  If the manufacturer is covering a great proportion of fixed and R&D costs when selling the Lexicon brand, then he is able to sell the down-market brand with a lower margin.  So, while the Lexicon consumers seem to get screwed, the Oppo consumers are actually better off.  Does this practice seem so heinous now?  I guess it depends who you are.  Without the Lexicon marketing effort, Oppo players would likely be costing everyone else significantly more.

I think people here have the tendency to be outraged in this scenario because it calls into question the sense behind our whole audiophile mentality.  Here is evidence that "audiophiles" aren't savvy enough to judge a product on the sound quality it produces.  Surely a manufacturer who sells a single product at two wildly different prices should expect to sell very little of the expensive product: any fool with ears will recognize that the extra $2500 for the Lexicon simply isn't buying any improvement in sound quality.  Apparently, that doesn't work in the audio world because not enough of us are smart enough to know what we're getting for our dollar.

Chad

srb

Re: The easy way to make a $3000 CD player
« Reply #52 on: 18 Jan 2010, 07:42 pm »
Without the Lexicon marketing effort, Oppo players would likely be costing everyone else significantly more.

Don't understand what you're saying here.  You seem to be saying that Oppo and Lexicon are the same company and that the increased revenue from sales of the pricey Lexicon covers the R&D so that Oppo brand can sell for less.
 
But they're not the same company, and the number of players that Oppo could possibly wholesale to Lexicon (and Lexicon could sell to users) wouldn't be more than a fraction of one percent of Oppo's revenue.
 
Steve

Bemopti123

Re: The easy way to make a $3000 CD player
« Reply #53 on: 18 Jan 2010, 07:43 pm »
The priceless item would be someone extricating the Oppo out of the aluminum casing and revealing how it is the Oppo, with a logo showing "Oppo" in shiny black plastic. 

HK corp as well as Lexicon will get hit financially once these news pops out.  I am sure the fire ain't contained but it is becoming the newest "conflaglation" of the brands involved. 

Not that I am buying stuff made by those douche bags but I now begin to have real respect to niche manufacturers that hawk their wares in AC.  No outsourcing, in house R&D and no ripping the consumer.

BUT

naive moneyed consumers also deserve some spanking'

Bear

Re: The easy way to make a $3000 CD player
« Reply #54 on: 18 Jan 2010, 07:45 pm »
chad, well spoken...er written.   Coors light = Keystone light?  Milwaukees best = Miller light?  is it too early for beer? :scratch:

anyhow, on to bigger and better fish.

good discussion.

Shane

oneinthepipe

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Re: The easy way to make a $3000 CD player
« Reply #55 on: 18 Jan 2010, 07:49 pm »
Just the mention of lawsuit is ridiculous.  If we follow the same train of thought, should I sue a food manufacturer of X brand of famous hotdogs if I find out that that dog was made in the same meatpacking factory in Oklahoma and I paid 2X as much for it? 

This is not the same.  Look at a hot dog package.  Also, look at the hot dog company's claims.  Look at the  Ford Fusion.  Ford touted that the car is a based on the Mazda 6.  Ford's ownership of Mazda is one of the company's strengths and not a fact that Ford conceals.

I never claimed that re-branding is illegal, unethical, or necessarily problematic.  I stated that deceptive marketing practices might be illegal.  Regarding your statement, "Just the mention of lawsuit is ridiculous", thankfully there are courts and juries, rather than you, to protect consumers from illegal practices.  I wonder if any BD-30 buyers would think that a lawsuit is ridiculous.  I wonder if the Lexicon dealers knew or were told that they were selling an Oppo with a different skin for 3500.00. 

zybar

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Re: The easy way to make a $3000 CD player
« Reply #56 on: 18 Jan 2010, 07:50 pm »

Don't understand what you're saying here.  You seem to be saying that Oppo and Lexicon are the same company and that the increased revenue from sales of the pricey Lexicon covers the R&D so that Oppo brand can sell for less.
 
But they're not the same company, and the number of players that Oppo could possibly wholesale to Lexicon (and Lexicon could sell to users) wouldn't be more than a fraction of one percent of Oppo's revenue.
 
Steve
By having Lexicon (and possibly others) OEM their product, Oppo increases revenue and/or has somebody to share R&D costs with (depending on what type of agreement they have in place with Lexicon or any other vendor they decide to do business with).

This happens everyday in almost all industries - nothing new here.

George

cujobob

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Re: The easy way to make a $3000 CD player
« Reply #57 on: 18 Jan 2010, 07:51 pm »

I think the main outrage is the multiplier.  No one on this forum had previously seen a rebadged component priced at 700% of the original.
 
Steve

This.

While the practice may not be illegal, I hope it does deter people from buying Lexicon in the future.

trebejo

Re: The easy way to make a $3000 CD player
« Reply #58 on: 18 Jan 2010, 08:03 pm »
From the Lexicon Website:
 
Providing unparalleled video quality...

There's nothing misleading or untrue there.

"Unparalleled"? There is your misleading term right there.

srb

Re: The easy way to make a $3000 CD player
« Reply #59 on: 18 Jan 2010, 08:06 pm »
Exactly. A responsibility devolves on the retailer not to misrepresent what he is selling. If a store is offering both players, they should be able to explain what the differences between the two products are.

The store can explain that the Lexicon is more physically robust, as any physical assault on the unit must make it's way through TWO chassis!
 
While the practice may not be illegal, I hope it does deter people from buying Lexicon in the future.

And to that end, each page of this thread should contain the full name of Lexicon BD-30 Blu-ray player to feed the Google index spiders.
 
Steve