Introducing...the Plast-i-lator!

TheChairGuy · « **Reply #20 on:** 4 Nov 2006, 01:05 am »

Wayner,

The bass lines aren't waaaaaay 'heavier' here...they are just much cleaner/able to pick out bass lines much easier from the crowd of sounds and instruments...ergo, the overall presentation. The bass is more prevalent, not so much heavier. And, gone is some bit of chatter/distortion that vinyl can have (at least with a Grado).

It might well be cartridge dependent, too. I found the Longhorn mod to be more effective on the Grado than the AT440ML/OCC. VPI recommends fluid damping with Grado's (which is internal feature of the JVC arm), but maybe not as necessary with AT's (just postulating now). Each cartridge, as is each headshell will probably respond differently to the tweek.

My headshell is a cheap $10 SME-type removable one...if your using a one piece arm with totally inert arm/headshell - maybe it doesn't effect it as much? Again, just pointing out differences.

For my case, I'd have to rate The Plast-i-Lator as perhaps a touch more important tweek than the Longhorn - or on par with it.

Listen some more, as here, it didn't take any straining to hear the very obvious betterment it had on things

TheChairGuy · « **Reply #21 on:** 4 Nov 2006, 01:07 am »

Oh, I should definitely add that 'noise' - the annoying clicks pops and hisses endemic in vinyl is far less noticable now

It seems that it damped the noise considerably, too (perhaps the entire range frequencies are damped now - and noise along with it)

John / TCG

Wayner · « **Reply #22 on:** 4 Nov 2006, 01:44 am »

I'm half way Thur the 12 and it is still sounding good. John, it is a good tweak, I think it is variable dependant upon the table/arm/cart combination.

Bwanagreg · « **Reply #23 on:** 4 Nov 2006, 04:17 am »

Great suggestion chair dude. I'm trying a variation on the theme, using a 3mm thick rectangle of sorbothane (from McMaster Carr). It is very easy to work with and allows me to snug the cartridge nicely against it. I'd say my initial impressions are that everything is a bit tighter and cleaner sounding, and I am getting a bit more bass impact. I've already longhorned the cartridge (a Grado MCZ) and platiclayed the platter suspension.

I have one other material I'd like to try - heavy roofing felt. This stuff is an impenetrable barrier to vibration, and I'm using it already to isolate my turntable shelf from the brackets and wall to good effect. So little time, so many tweaks...

ohenry · « **Reply #24 on:** 4 Nov 2006, 04:50 am »

I've got to stop reading this thread, I spent most of a good Friday night tweeking and longhorning my woody...Grado woody that is.

I added the clay to the top and while I was at it, I tried the longhorn on my Grado Platinum. The cartridge is relatively new and I've had a little trouble dialing it in. There was just a hint of grain to a few recordings that bothered me, such as Ella Fitzgerald's "Clap Hands, Here Comes Charlie" 200g on Verve, or during a few crescendos in KC's "Larks Tongues in Aspic". I added the clay and longhorn and fiddled quite a while with alignment, tracking force, etc. and now I have it singing beautifully. I think the longhorn has a positive effect, but maybe not as much as with the Green. And who knows what the clay on the top is contributing. The bass is so well defined now and the highs sound natural. It's all adding up to contentment tonight and I've never had my turntable performing at this level. Thanks to John and the contributors for motivating me to go a little further.

TheChairGuy · « **Reply #25 on:** 4 Nov 2006, 06:14 am »

You're all sick - yessssssss

And Henry, I know your perpetually weak for da' tweak

Could be that as you get better stylus shapes and lighter cantilevers on the Grado's as you move up the line (from Prestige to Woodies on up), the effect of the Longhorn may be somewhat mollified as the cartridge is already a reasonably effective tracker; while the lower end models have problems in that area. I'm not too surprised that the Longhorn seems to benefit the Green the most.

Nor would I be to surprised if The Plast-i-Lator helps the Prestige models most as part of the tweek is that it damps the cartridge body...something not as necessary with the more inert Woodie series.

My JVC with tarted-up Grado Green will be heard tomorrow at the 1st official NORCal get-together...it'll be interesting to hear the comments there on it.

EDIT: I was also thinking this morning that The Plast-i-Lator might be more important on direct drive tables as, fortunately and unfortunately, the motors are located just below the stylus and platter and the cartridge/arm might absorb more 'energy' because of it. Therefore, damping that headshell/cartridge joint might be more beneficial than most belt drivers

Nonetheless, all tables have some built up energy in this important joint and benefit somewhat. Those with inexpensive belt drivers, with correspondingly lesser expensive (and noisier) bearings, might also benefit dramatically as I have.

Wayner · « **Reply #26 on:** 4 Nov 2006, 12:39 pm »

John (a.k.a. TCG), what are you tracking your Grado Green at?

TheChairGuy · « **Reply #27 on:** 4 Nov 2006, 03:46 pm »

1.5 right now (with counterweight/dial lines on the JVC)....I'll try to be more exact with the Shure Tracking Force Gauge to see if it is of any difference sometime this weekend.

When last I got tweeky with it, it sounded best at like 1.46-1.48 or something. 'Twas odd, usually small changes in VTF didn't matter much, with the Grado, it seems critical. 1.4 wasn't right, and 1.6 was noticeably too heavy - I don't remember hearing that critical a difference before in small increments with other cartridges.

Wayner · « **Reply #28 on:** 5 Nov 2006, 12:08 am »

The 2nd AR-XA is totally up and running and I would say that it will beat any TT up to 5K. I heard a VPI the other day and they have nothing that can beat the old 37 year old AR, period. Forget the Longhorn.

TheChairGuy · « **Reply #29 on:** 5 Nov 2006, 01:04 am »

I'm not sure what you're saying here Wayner...are you saying that The Plast-i-Lator made such a difference that the Longhorn doesn't matter?

Or, are you just saying that the AR is so good you wouldn't pay $5K for a VPI...regardless of The Plast-i-Lator or Longhorn?

Not that it matters - it's your opinion - I'm just trying to understand it

Again, that AT440ML is a fabulous tracker....the Longhorn may not help it as much as The Plast-i-Lator (which any table and cartridge would benefit from - good tracking or not as it works a different issue entirely)

Wayner · « **Reply #30 on:** 5 Nov 2006, 07:43 am »

I'm saying the AR is that good. The Plast-i-lator has certainly helped the Empire, but after listening to that for about 2 hours and then switching back to the AR, It's like 2 different worlds. I just don't think I can tweak the Empire much more. Having heard the new VPI, which is nice, I still like the AR better. Maybe it was the music/room/cartridge/expectation combo that did it. I do know that a lot of money doesn't mean "better" sound.

I am now thinking about a new tone arm for the Empire. When I try to set up VTF on the AR, I can tell (using my Shure SFG-2) that the arm is "sluggish" in the vertical pivot plane. I thought that was bad. Now I think it is good. The Empire floats on the stylus gauge, bobbing up and down so effortlessly and the arm seems to be extremely well balanced, but it certainly doesn't do a thing for the Grado cartridge. I'm pretty sure it has tracking issues yet.

I'm not saying the Longhorn is not noteworthy either. it's a damn good tweet, as is the plast-i-lator, It just isn't curing my Empire woes and when I fire up the untweeked AR I wonder why I've gone through all the work. I'm just frustrated with the Empire, John and as I slowly get to hear more of the newer (and costlier) turntables with high priced cartridges, I always come back to the design of the AR and how wonderful it sounds with a cheap 100 dollar cartridge.

TheChairGuy · « **Reply #31 on:** 5 Nov 2006, 03:45 pm »

Ahhhh, got it! Rock on with yer' bad AR, Wayner

BobM · « **Reply #32 on:** 5 Nov 2006, 06:22 pm »

I tried some of the EAR Isodamp that I had lying around. For those who don't know - if you call up EAR and ask for samples they will send you a 3"x3" square. You can request variious thicknesses also. These are perfect for cutting a small piece for the cartridge (use the thinnest one), or for sitting under that stand alone motor on the VPI's (use a medioum thickness here), or for putting underneath the transformer where it bolts down in your amp or phono stage (medium mere as well), or ... use your imagination.

Anyway, the cartridge is firm and not moving about like it did with the Moretite. Bass and definition are great. A worthwhile tweak for sure. And it looks better than grey Moretite (the Isodamp is blue).

Enjoy,
Bob

gooberdude · « **Reply #33 on:** 5 Nov 2006, 07:30 pm »

free EAR isodamp, nice BobM

i have a belt drive tt with a fixed headshell, been thinking about simple materials that might work with my set-up.

a material like deflex might work, but i wouldn't want that stuff squished up with the cartridge.
i wonder if paper-tak (elephant snot) would isolate yet hold the cartridge in place securely? silly putty maybe?

what about a thin piece(s) of cork?

i'll be calling EAR this week for the sample, very cool.

one Marigo VTS dot on the face of any Prestige model gardo cartridge is beneficial. that dot + the Longhorn is a great match. i'd bet it'll change the Plasti-lator results too.
you'll get more bass, more separation.

Does anyone have experience damping power cable plugs? i have a few sets of cryo'd wattgate 5266i plugs, been thinking about what to do with them. i carefully roped in an inner wall coating/layer of the blue snot into 2 maple plugs: a captive cdp power cord & a Muse amp w/captive cord. the paper-tak comes $4 a package w/5 bars of tak. each male plug took 2 bars. this has improved sound so far, extremely positive results.

been watching the plugs for a week, checking to see if heat did anything & so far the stuffing has stayed in place, no deformity or change, and there's no heat. Any safety issues here?

this seems to have tamed the micrphonics. these plugs are mass produced & really lightweight. i didn't completely stuff the plugs - the cords & paper-tak never touch - like a little donut inside the plug that you stuff against the inner wall. the plug no longer rings when tapped with a fingernail, its solid. WAY more solid than the Oyaide or Furutech fi-11 plugs.

GD

Wayner · « **Reply #34 on:** 5 Nov 2006, 09:18 pm »

The Empire may be fixed. The solution is to remove the Grado. In it's place is an old Audio Technica AT450 which is now discontinued and I do need a new stylus. Even with the slightly worn stylus, the table is very happy and so are my ears.

Conclusion: Empire turntables are NOT compatible with Grado cartridges, period. Tweaks or no tweaks, the arm is too responsive.

I will be ordering another AT440MLa tomorrow but may also consider the less expensive AT95E.

Sometimes a guy has to stop beating the dead horse.

This has been a very interesting weekend. John, TCG has inspired myself and I think many others into looking at their vinyl playback systems from a different point of view. I remember the Empire sounding pretty damn good at one time or another and somewhere along the line, the way was lost. I think I finally had to admit to myself that I made a bad choice mating the Empire with the Grado. The success of this forum has helped me in so many ways, find my way back. I really want to understand this simple turntable device and have found that is not simple at all. There are so many laws of physics at work, it's hard to round it all up.

I know the Longhorn and the Plast-i-lator are excellent tweaks. I also know you can't make a silk coin purse from a sows ear.

I will carry on.

Wayner

TheChairGuy · « **Reply #35 on:** 5 Nov 2006, 11:34 pm »

Way to go guys

....you inspire ME to think of new tweeks every day.

I'm formulating a new one that came to me today while walking...gotta' let it brew a while, than I'll jump in on it tomorrow (likely).

Good or bad - ya' know I'll be reporting back on it.

Love that free Isodamp, Bob....don't want to inundate them for too many requests so I'l wait a few days for my mooching

Wayner · « **Reply #36 on:** 10 Nov 2006, 12:41 am »

YO! The AT440MLa is in the Empire 598 II and wow! This is another combo that is instantly easy on the ears and on the pocket book. Nice bass line and the highs are not shrilly. I hear that "tunnel effect" between the speakers that I also listen for, 'cause I know the soundstage is going to be excellent. I'm listening to the FIXX-PHAMTOMS, and I am "FACING THE WIND"! Also very little if any surface noise.

Wayner's rule: If your tone arm is loose as a goose, get the AT440MLa. It truly tracks like a bastard. Forget Mikey Fremers AT95E (tracks way too heavy) and put the AT440MLa at the top of your list for the best cartridge in the 100-300 dollars range. I'm sure John, TCG is going to put up his dukes on this wild claim!!!! aa

TheChairGuy · « **Reply #37 on:** 10 Nov 2006, 03:21 am »

No dukes - everyone entitled to an outburst

Who knows, maybe you're right....here's an excerpt from LPGear.com on the AT440MLa....an they sell a ton of analog gear there (I think their sister company, Alex Atelier, distributes Graham Slee products in the US)

Quote from: LPGear

Each Audio-Technica cartridge is hand-assembled with tolerances held to mere thousandths of an inch. Stringent quality control assures that tolerances and performance criteria are maintained for each product. This attention to every micro detail in design, construction and final assembly results in superior phono cartridges that are delightfully musical and musically accurate.

With the new and improved AT440MLa phono cartridge, Audio-Technica delivers musical excellence in an affordably-priced audiophile cartridge that rightfully should be compared with moving magnets costing up to $500. Yes, it is that good. The Audio-Technica AT440MLa's excellence lies in the suitable employment of advanced designs uniquely available to Audio-Technica because of its rich technical history and production capabilities:

Glad to hear The Plast-i-Lator helped things along their merry way

Jampot · « **Reply #38 on:** 10 Nov 2006, 09:06 am »

Quote

get the AT440MLa

Quote

put the AT440MLa at the top of your list

Pimp, Pimp!

I'm just jealous really, mine didn't arrive from Tx yet

Keep this up Wayner and I shall want nothing less than a personal listening session

Jim

Wayner · « **Reply #39 on:** 11 Nov 2006, 12:01 am »

The Empire with the new AT440MLa and a little plast-i-lator have... aa brought the old gal to the next level, finally. I know some of you may wonder what's the big deal. I bought this turntable when I was 16 years old. Thats coming close to a half a lifetime ago. It may be the finest example of an Empire 598 left in the world because I have taken care of it for all of those years. As the cantileaver of the AT is breaking in and I am adjusting the VTA, the true fidelity of many albums are becoming apparent. The Donald Fagen "Nightfly" album is giving it up in great ways. I am thinking of another tweak which I will try tomorrow. Tonight is for beer and tunes.