[Wayner]

Now I have beat John a.k.a. "the Chair Guy" with a new tweak of the week. Now the Empire is fitted with the AT440MLa, Plast-i-lator and now PLAST-I-BAND! Yes, with my experience damping lighting poles, I've decided to add a band of plast-i-clay around the playback arm about 1/3 the way from the pivot. My plasticlay is black in color. The theroy is to suck up any vibrations that the plast-i-lator didn't get that may have been going up the arm.  I may be going insane, but there does seem to be an improvement. I can't add to much more weight to the arm as I am getting close to the end with the counterweight. I will listen all day and tomorrow for the final word.

See what you started John. Now I'm doing this crazy inventing stuff and it's all your fault!  aa

[TheChairGuy]

SWEET - hey, that table is really is georgeous, Wayner 

I love the name, The Plast-i-band !

Actually, I never mentioned it, but it's one of the things I do with an arm.  It works great on most (worked on my $50 JVC table bought last year well).  But, on my current JVC ql-f6, it overdamped the arm.  I didn't know it was possible...and I think it was only because my arm has (internal) vertical and horizontal oil damping.  It is already well damped...adding The Plast-i-band overdamped everything to pure deadness.

For the vast majority of arms, I'd think a little band would improve things.  My 'idea' really wasn't mine....Frank van Alstine wrote about it 24 years ago in Audio Basics (look at the 1982 news).  1982 was before the advent of CD, so much efforts were put in to the highest form of fidelity at the time, the turntable (do things change?  aa), and Audio Basics of that age was invaluable for good TT primers and tweeks. 

[Psychicanimal]

I may be going insane, but there does seem to be an improvement. I can't add to much more weight to the arm as I am getting close to the end with the counterweight. I will listen all day and tomorrow for the final word.

I use Marigo dots (green) applied directly on the tonearm gimbals of my 1200's tonearm.  Exactly at the critical, most effective position, small, ultra light and unobtusive.

The dots made a substantial improvement in clarity.

Go get them!!!

[gooberdude]

I 2nd them dots!     The $50 VTS tonearm kit from marigo worked magic on my brand new Pro-Ject carbon tonearm...plus you can barely see them and have no fears of sliding them off.   The vts kit doesn't put  dots over the gymbals though - just on the headshell, armtube & counterweight.

Steve at Herbie's Audio Lab told me that many of his customers are using a Grungebuster dot to do the work of the Plasti-lator, so one 50 cent dot is en route to me.   I also have a free piece of EAR Isodamp 1002, the .012" thickness.    its quite thin, so i'll try single, double & probably triple layers of it.   The Marigo dots I have are nothing like this EAR material...it is similar to the mass loaded vinyl sheeting i've seen for soundproofing.

Side note:  i've been using Herbie's Way Excellent Mat for over a year, its amazing.  Before it, I was a die hard 'stock felt mat' guy.  I ordered the Sonic Stablizer puck last week, its supposed to complement the WE mat & it does just that...quite an amazing transformation really ($30).  The biggest issue now is the Longhorn...its not center puck friendly.   I have to be there when the last track is over or the LH runs into the puck when running through the center grooves.   

Wayner, your table is rad....is that a huge chunk of milled brass that the platter & arm are sitting on?     

Mike Meyers' character Goldfinger woulda dug your table!  its gorgeous...

[Wayner]

I will try the dots. Goob, the table is all die-cast aluminum that is brushed and lacquered. The tone arm has many brass investment cast pieces on it including the head, and the entire pivot assembly. Underneath the plinth is a massive spring hung sub-suspension, like the AR only at a far more grandiose scale. The inner platter of the Empire weighs about 10 pounds! As I have said, I have had this turntable since I was 16 years old and it has never failed me (knock on wood). I like the American made turntables from the sixties and seventies. 

I have read Franks Audio Basics, 1982 but I didn't recall the plasticlay idea on the tone arm. If Frank thought it up, then great call on Franks part. This was the tweak that was really needed. After my 5 1/2 hour listening session last night, I think the Empire is now sounding very much like the AR, which is wonderful. I do have a slight issue with rumble at pretty moderate volume levels, which will require further tweakage.

We must continue to tweak, as it is a disease that there is no escape, right John (TCG)?

w

[TheChairGuy]

'Tis a disease....with generally positive outcomes on vinyl playback equipment 

I coulda' sworn Frank mentioned it somewhere and I copied The Plast-i-Band idea....it may be in 1983 or 1984, possibly. Those years were still mostly vested in getting the best from vinyl sources...as it was still mostly pre-CD era.

Goober, I have the Herbie's mat and it's the best I've used.  Mine has the thicker open cell foam (I think it was all of $58 for it).  Those dots are rediculously effective at damping the record...I found I needed exactly 12 to do the job on my old JVC direct driver. On this JVC DD table, the combination of the tall Ortofon cartridge, constrained layer damping in the headshell/body area and no ajdustment for VTA makes the mat the deciding factor for correct height and damping.

I have an old Audioquest sorbothane mat that damps the platter better than Herbies or the original rubber mat....but it horrendous in direct contact with the record - it just sucks the life out of the music in direct contact.  So, I took 8 of the dots from Herbie's mat and placed it on the Audioquest mat (so they are in contact with the record first) and it bought all the life back.  Those Herbie's dots are simply amazing - just a few will do.  Don't know why I never thought of them in place of the Plast-i-Clay in the headshell  - good tweek, gooberdude! 

It seems to escaped wide-scale notice, but I think I found the world's sickest, most intense vinyl tweeker in the world...a certain Zero One on VinylEngine.com.  I took his listed tweeks he did on his Pioneer belt driver and put them here: http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=29618.10

Just when you think you've tweeked it all, THIS guy comes along and makes me feel like a 16 year old, high school, sophomore, girl - still in a training bra 

[gooberdude]

Wayner,

you're table is absolutely one of the nicest tt's i've seen.   


Hey TCG,
The only mat i find on Herbie's site w/the dots is the really expensive one designed for acrylic platters...is this the one you have? 

If what you have is the Way Excellent mat, i agree 100% that its the best mat i've used.   I've tried several $100 ones and the $50WE mat was the only one that made me want to remove the stock felt mat.

The $30 stabilizer puck that goes with the WE mat is worth every penny...i've been anti-record weight ever since i got into this hobby.   Do order one is you're mat is the WE mat...the only issue is w/the Longhorn.  it does kinda get in the way.    i really can't believe how much of an improvement the puck makes.   It produced a stereotypical 'phile response of "a camera lense snapping into focus"       I'm soooooo close to being done modding my tt - this week i'm damping & replacing the stylus when i have time - wish me luck.

Odd:  the new styus has a black cantilver...the stock Gold cantilever is gold.  Also, the diamond on the re-tip looks tiny compared to the stock.  Any ideas if the design has changed??

GD

[TheChairGuy]

I've got the thicker Herbie's Way Excellent mat...the one that goes for $58.50.

Mine came with 24 dots...I use 12...its just right (anything more is too damped; anything less is too loose).

I like the Longhorn - I'll probably fashion a new clamp that won't interfere with it here.

[gooberdude]

Weird, mine didn't come w/dots...but i have the thin $50 one.   

You should try out herbie's $30 puck before making one - the material
he uses is unique & there's synergy with it & the WE mat.   inbetween the puck & the LP is a ring of the grungebuster material, the puck doesn't touch the vinyl.   at 5.8oz, this puck is really light compared to most i've seen.  i don't think it works off mass alone.

the Longhorn isn't much of an issue, but by the time the needle enters the center grooves (after the music stops) i have to be around to grab it before it runs up against the puck.   it doesn't seem like it will hurt the stylus, but you can hear it skip into the previous groove when the LH rubs against the puck.

reducing the width of the LH by a few mm might cure the issue.


matt

[Toka]

Sounds like TheChairGuy has the Grungebuster mat...I think?

And gooberdude...does Herbie's weight help with warped records? I mean, is it heavy 'enough'?

[gooberdude]

hey Toka,

I doubt that the sonic stabilizer will affect warped records...it only covers about 70% of the label.  it may help press the lp against the platter due to  LP's being convex in shape, but i dunno.    A perihery ring seems like it would tackle warped LP's most effectively - but i have no experience with them.  Steve at Herbie's could tell you though.

I've never heard anyone state this, but i think that warping can be removed/reduced (not severe but normal) by running the LP's through my record cleaning machine.   The suction seems to bend the LP's inside out kinda, gives them a bit of a workout in this regard. 

I'm not claiming that my nitty gritty unwarps records, but I do recall owning some warped records, yet they ALL lay/play perfectly straight now.  and its easy to see the suction bending the wax, if only temporarily.

GD

[TheChairGuy]

Sounds like TheChairGuy has the Grungebuster mat...I think?

And gooberdude...does Herbie's weight help with warped records? I mean, is it heavy 'enough'?

Funny you mention it - Steve Herbelin (aka Herbie) asked me if I wanted dots or non-dotted Way Excellent mat - I told him 'dots'.  That's what I got for $58.50 (he talked me out of the Grungebuster mat, actually)

This is the one I bought....

Way Excellent Deluxe: Identical to above, with thicker foam base; 2.75mm overall thickness, weight: 70 grams (2.5 oz.). For turntables with rubber or extra-thick felt mat.

$58.50

But, but the look of it, I got something more akin to the Grungebuster mat.  So, now I'm kinda' perplexed what I have here....   I bought it with about $100 worth of other stuff at the time.

Anyhow, it sounds great - only with exactly 12 dots 

I have found that the Longhorn is terrific and every time I use to much damping on the topside, when using Herbie's mat underside, it is too much damping - it damps the life out of the music. I don't know how or why that is, but I know it is. I just use a small 'pig' clamp that lightly hold the record to the surface and it seems to work best.

Previous use of different types of clamps (both weighted, and non-weighted like the plastic tripod type that Ortofon and Pickering sold and I still own) over the past 20 years ona variety of tables yielded no way near the benefit of the Longhorn, overall.  I have (non-suspended) direct drive - so weight isn't a real issue here. 

[gooberdude]

Every record weight/clamp i've ever used sucks the life out of the LP's.  A friend loaned me a really heavy one from Mitchell and i've tried a few others that i won't mention.  None brought about any positive changes except this one from Steve.

All the others seem to be designed around a heavy, centered mass.  Steve's seems to deal with vibration in a beneficial way - not just with weight.  My Pro-ject table is not suspended though, plus the funky Mapleshade footers/platform & isoblocks probably have lots to do with the results i've experienced.

TCG, where do the g-buster dots go?  are they betw the mat & the lp or sandwiched in the mat somehow?     


GD

[TheChairGuy]

The dots go on top of the mat (ie, they are removeable).

As I had side earlier (easy to get lost in the shuffle), I don't even use Herbie's mat as it's too thick for my table right now (my Ortofon is rather tall and the constrained layer damping wad between body and headshell make it that much taller).

I now have exactly 8 dots, transferred from the Herbie's mat, to the top of my Audioquest sorbothane mat.  Without these dots, the sorbothane mat is terrible...it damps the platter, but it's the most awful substance in contact with the record itself.  It just vampires the life from it

With just 8 lowly dots on the sorbothane and under the record, the Audioquest mat dampes the platter well, and is offers near ideal record damping now. Amazing transformation - just because of these 8 dots. Them's l'il dots are powerful 

[Wayner]

Gooberdude and John TCG,

I just thought I would post a full view of the Empire 598. Thanks for the help and the compliments and positive feedback comments.

W



The table sits on top of a slab of African Granite that weighs about 35 pounds. The feet are Audio Technica.
There is zero feedback with the granite.

[Psychicanimal]

Classy... aa

[TheChairGuy]

wow, very pretty Wayner 

[duggie]

i am sure this headshell-cartridge interface stuff works.  i have an extremely rare item, made by mod squad, famous for their "tip-toes"; they were one of the 1st (maybe *the 1st?) cone-feet products out there.  they made a fono cartridge set of tiptoes, two small polymer plates that fit between your cartridge & headshell, one has tiny tip-toes on it!     i have used it for years.  the $150 isolator, while i am sure it works, seems grossly overpriced, imo.  all these ideas here seem better, from a price standpoint. but i would personally recommend something already in sheet form, as previously mentioned here, as opposed to the moretite-type stuff, due to its likelihood of movement, etc...

something worth trying would be a product from alcan.   (i wouldn't be surprised if this is where "the isloator" in fact comes from.)  years ago, i sourced a small piece of sintra made by them, to fab a motor mount for a c&j walker turntable i was modding.  it worked like a charm.  a tiny piece of this would do the same as the isolator.  alcan makes quite a few different products as well, that may work better or worse, but i am sure they all would be a worthwhile mod.  one in particular - dibond - seems extroadinarily similar to the isolator:



go to their website to  their other products:

http://www.alcancompositesusa.com/home.html

now, re: the "longhorne" tweek, this seems worthwhile, but i prefer mounting something to prevent unwanted lateral movement at the tonearm's pivot point (you can barely see the cartridge tiptoe plates between headshell & cartridge as well):



these are lead weights for aquarium plants, held in place w/blu-tac.  they help minimize lateral movement of the tonearm.  placed exactly at the pivot point, they de not affect the tracking force.  they may damp the tonearm bearings as well.

here's a doctored pic of my turntable in action...



another comment - about empire turntables - they are world class.  i had a non-suspended 208 w/980 tonearm.  absolutely fantastic.  but, the tonearms are definitely the weakest link.  when i replaced the stock tonearm w/a funky rs labs rs-a1, the results were amazing - rivaling my oracle.  so much so that i sold the 208, to buy an old empire 498.  this rare deck has the heavier platter of the old unsuspended empires, w/the suspension of the 598/698's.  but, it is much more difficult to mount a modern arm on these, & this is a project i haven't tackled yet.  if you can get a machinist to enlarge the tonearm mounting hole in the subchassis to fit something like an o-l modded rega, you will take the 598 to another level, tweeks or no.

[gooberdude]

hey Duggie,

Wow!   too cool.   aa


Is that a Dustbug?  if so, what mfgr?

[BobM]

PSSSSSTTTT...

... Alan Composite hands out samples too. Don't all swamp them at once though or the policy might change.

Enjoy,
Bob