Introducing...the Plast-i-lator!

duggie · « **Reply #60 on:** 14 Nov 2006, 09:02 pm »

yup, i am sure that alcan will give samples. i bought my small ~2'-2' piece of sintra for a few bucks from a local plastics shop.

re: the "dust-bug", mine is a keith monks record sweeper. it has a bit-o-carbon in the brush, & a grounding wire, to help dissipate static. it works great. but, so did my ancient watts dust bug, which i used for years & years, before i stumbled upon the record sweeper on ebay; some guy was closing out a lot of vintage nos record supplies...

here's another one that's on ebay all the time, also w/a grounding wire; i bought one, but mine is still in the box. mebbe when i get my empire 498 up & running...

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=170048026534

gooberdude · « **Reply #61 on:** 14 Nov 2006, 09:58 pm »

thanks Duggie,

i bought that very same Dustbug (the ebay one) a few months back. Vinyl here in a chicago skyscraper is a painful pasttime a few months each year due to all the static.

We haven't experienced really dry weather yet, but already the Dustbug has become a lifelong tt companion piece. I make lots of cd's from lp's, and the difference is audible - a much quieter background. Its so nuts that each side of play picks up a dustball...

I've since grounded the rack too...the tt, dustbug and rack ground are all connected to the lug on my phono preamp...i hope its not too many grounds - no issues thus far.

thanks for the response.

GD

duggie · « **Reply #62 on:** 14 Nov 2006, 10:05 pm »

it's nice when that dustball is somewhere else than on your stylus!

you may also wanna check out a humidifier; really excellent, for your breathing, as well as for anti-static...

Quote from: gooberdude on 14 Nov 2006, 09:58 pm

thanks Duggie,

i bought that very same Dustbug (the ebay one) a few months back. Vinyl here in a chicago skyscraper is a painful pasttime a few months each year due to all the static.

We haven't experienced really dry weather yet, but already the Dustbug has become a lifelong tt companion piece. I make lots of cd's from lp's, and the difference is audible - a much quieter background. Its so nuts that each side of play picks up a dustball...

I've since grounded the rack too...the tt, dustbug and rack ground are all connected to the lug on my phono preamp...i hope its not too many grounds - no issues thus far.

thanks for the response.

GD

gooberdude · « **Reply #63 on:** 14 Nov 2006, 10:42 pm »

I've read opinions in other forums that a thorough initial LP cleaning w/an RCM + Dustbug + regular stylus cleaning might result in 2 beneficial outcomes: The stylus may last 2x as long (or longer) than the mfgr recomends & and no damage to LP's will occur from normal play...ie, the old addage that every time you play a record you wear it down a tiny bit may not apply.

yeah, i keep my place balmy like a rainforrest 6 months a year...funny thing is i just read that adding h2o to the room does not remove static, it simply reduces it a small amount. I have 2 large humidifiers going 24/7 in a 1200 sf space....and occasionally i'll even boil water on the stove...that occasion is February!

however, the Dustbug and my new TVC with wood knobs are gonna go far towards reducing shocks - i hope. If only somone would invent grounding slippers...

i just read yesterday that an 'air geetar' T shirt is available....it hooks right into your ipod i think.

GD

Wayner · « **Reply #64 on:** 16 Nov 2006, 12:12 am »

Jampot,

Have you gotten your AT440MLa yet? The Empire is happier than a pig in swill! We all want to hear a report.

W

Jampot · « **Reply #65 on:** 16 Nov 2006, 09:21 am »

Wayner wrote

Quote

Have you gotten your AT440MLa yet?

No, unfortunately not. Mrs. Jampot decided she would like to visit for Thanksgiving so my personal forwarding service decided it was OK not to ship....

I accumulated some other bits and pieces meanwhile - a RWA Monica 2 dac, one of Lonewolfny's cd recommendations from Your Music and some Belden 83803 cable for pcs - so it can all come home in the suitcase, but won't be here untill 29/11.

Meanwhile, the Shure M95HE is coping, and I enjoy following everyone's tweeking experiences here.

I'll be sure to let you know how I fair with it, but it could well be the Christmas holiday before I get it properly setup and run in, I have a busy schedule in December.

Jim

duggie · « **Reply #66 on:** 16 Nov 2006, 01:18 pm »

i believe what you have read, based upon my personal experience. i have used a dustbug on my records for >30 years (yikes!) and i have many old discs that are still in great shape. and, i never used an rcm; i have always washed my records w/lukewarm water, mild dishsoap, & a sponge, dried w/a soft rag...

re: humidification, in the house i used to live in, i had a steam generator installed in the hvac system, it made a huge difference, both in air quality, & reduction of static. if you really have a static problem that bad, get one of those grounded computer room mats & put your rig (and the area in front of it where you stand) on that...

Quote from: gooberdude on 14 Nov 2006, 10:42 pm

I've read opinions in other forums that a thorough initial LP cleaning w/an RCM + Dustbug + regular stylus cleaning might result in 2 beneficial outcomes: The stylus may last 2x as long (or longer) than the mfgr recomends & and no damage to LP's will occur from normal play...ie, the old addage that every time you play a record you wear it down a tiny bit may not apply.

yeah, i keep my place balmy like a rainforrest 6 months a year...funny thing is i just read that adding h2o to the room does not remove static, it simply reduces it a small amount. I have 2 large humidifiers going 24/7 in a 1200 sf space....and occasionally i'll even boil water on the stove...that occasion is February!

however, the Dustbug and my new TVC with wood knobs are gonna go far towards reducing shocks - i hope. If only somone would invent grounding slippers...

i just read yesterday that an 'air geetar' T shirt is available....it hooks right into your ipod i think.

GD

BobM · « **Reply #67 on:** 16 Nov 2006, 07:28 pm »

A similar thread on Audiogon with quite different results, basically supporting the "common" wisdom that a firm coupling of cartridge and headshell is imperative to good performance:

http://forum.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/fr.pl?eanlg&1163636738&read&3&zzlPboutin&&

I am still playing with this and reserve my final judgement until I try all the options and then switch back to a firm coupling to see if going back sounds better or worse. Sometimes reversing a tweak is when you really notice that it isn't working as well as you first thought.

Enjoy,
Bob

duggie · « **Reply #68 on:** 16 Nov 2006, 08:07 pm »

i agree w/the premise of the agon thread that a firm coupling between cartridge & headshell is a good thing. whether or not this can be achieved w/the isolator, other tweaks mentioned here, or even the alcan products i mentioned, i can't say for sure. tho it appears to me that some of the alcan products look like firm coupling can be achieved, based upon the materials used. i *do* know that my li'l tiptoes provide a firm coupling... aa

Quote from: BobM on 16 Nov 2006, 07:28 pm

A similar thread on Audiogon with quite different results, basically supporting the "common" wisdom that a firm coupling of cartridge and headshell is imperative to good performance:

http://forum.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/fr.pl?eanlg&1163636738&read&3&zzlPboutin&&

I am still playing with this and reserve my final judgement until I try all the options and then switch back to a firm coupling to see if going back sounds better or worse. Sometimes reversing a tweak is when you really notice that it isn't working as well as you first thought.

Enjoy,
Bob

Wayner · « **Reply #69 on:** 18 Nov 2006, 01:20 am »

We are listening to the Empire tonight and I must say........................Swing! Low noise and High dynamics. Even the wife is going.....what the 7734>

Zero One · « **Reply #70 on:** 18 Nov 2006, 10:37 am »

Having now read many posts on different forums and also reviews one thing seems clear to me, this is a contentious subject worth serious investigation. Many who claim it won't work, have not even tried but many have tried and the results are mixed it seems...but even so mixed results indicate something is happening.

Some arguments aginst the isolator are maybe ill conceived, for example one poster felt the sound would be reflected back into the cart by the mount at a bit lower level (I think thats what they were getting at anyway). I thought the idea of sound/vibration absorbing materials was to turn the motion into heat thus dissapating the problem. But maybe I am missing something here? Other arguments seem pretty reasonable, movement would reduce bass I'd say, however I think the problem would be from movement in the horizontal plane which would damp the side to side motion of the stylus and its impact on the internal cart mechanism. If the movement were truly isolated to the vertical plane perhaps the loss of bass would not occur.

In my case using a modified double sided tape mounting method the results quite amazing and I am very convinced it is worthwhile.

I feel however the commercial product currently being talked about (the cartridge isolator) probably has a huge amount of potential development and it would be possible to produce a vastly superior item with more R and D.

I tried a little experiment a couple of days ago, which really came out of the posts on the longhorn mod, which I tried on my isolated cart and found to be worthwhile on my system.

What I wondered about is could the carts performance be improved if the cart was damped and supported from the sides. My reasoning being the longhorn must be working due to the cancellation and control of some very low level horizontal plane vibration/ movement. The longhorn improved the highs but I could not see much change to bass, but it seems to me if there is high frequency movement there is most likely some larger movements in sympathy with the bass notes.

I took a small amount of blutac and mounded it up against the front and sides faces of the cart, basically wedging the front 5mm of the cart within a blutac sandwhich, the idea being to reduce horizontal plane movements, whilst still allowing the foam tape to absorb vertical plane movements.

The results with my cart are very interesting, first up let me state this is a cheap cart with a spherical stylus so it is likely to benefit most from tweeks I guess.

I found the highs were as before, lovely, but some slight low level surface noise was reintroduced to the system, very minimal though so its a reasonable trade off. The great thing however is the bass has more authourity and is tighter overall giving a better balance.

There is no real change to dynamics, it had plenty to begin with so my experience is not the same as those who feel the isolator sucked the life and dynamics out of the music.

Now I feel it is early days, but the more I play with this concept the more it seems like a viable system tuning method, it is likely a matter of finding the right balance.

At this point I invisage a headshell that actually encapsulates a lot of the cart with differing damping materials on the horizontal and vertical faces could work well and of course no nuts or bolts used.

Note I am not saying cart alignment would be easy, though I feel it could be managed.

I imagine that the isolation method and materials will need to take into account cart compliance, stylus type, drive system, arm damping, tracking weight and maybe even loading. Clearly this is a tall demand and any commercial product would be unlikely to offer an optimised solution. BUT maybe, just maybe DIY guys could through a process of collaborative effort come up with some general approaches that do work well that could be then refined by individuals.

Overall I feel the solutions would be very very cheap so other than time there is no reason not to experiment and if the overall opinion ends up being it won't work, well at least we would know....but I personally feel it does and will work, especailly for more budget based sytems, it just needs development.

Wayner · « **Reply #71 on:** 18 Nov 2006, 03:18 pm »

Zero One,

This morning doing the Saturday chores (vaccuuming, dusting) I have been thinking about the next tweak. I'm almost afraid to disturb the Empire as after last weekends tweaks, it has never sounded better. I can't wait to get home to put on some vinyl. Anyway, I was thinking just 20 minutes ago, how about a couple of dots of plasticlay to the sides of the cartridge. Hopefully, I wouldn't disturb anything but VTF and that could be easily changed for the additional weight. I am afraid to do this next tweak. I should take my tweaks off one by one to see which one has the largest impact, but I believe all of the tweaks in combination are contributing to the quality of the overall sound. I believe we are focusing in on the enemy by:

1. Stoping uncontrolled vibrations going up the tone arm via the Plast-i-lator.
2. Stoping uncontrolled vibrations from creating harmonics in the tone arm via the Plast-i-band.
3. Certainly using the Longhorn helps with trackability.
4. Isolating noise from the motor via plasticlay damping in the plinth.
5. Adding fishing line anti-skating tweak.
6. Adjusting for correct VTA (I believe this is a very important adjustment, arm too high=schrill, arm to low=boominess and surface noise).
7. Adjusting for correct VTF (the AT440MLa loves 1.4 grams).

And maybe after chores, Plast-i-dots to the cartridge sides!

When will I stop? Damn Chair Guy. aa

Zero One · « **Reply #72 on:** 18 Nov 2006, 08:17 pm »

Gday Wayner

I'd say there is a good chance the dots and plasticlay on the cart would make a change and maybe for the better. A few weeks back I put stick on cork on the sides and bottom of my cheap test cart and then painted over the cork with araldite. This improved clarity for sure, I feel because it stopped resonances within the metal body of the cart, at this stage I had not done anything else about mounting the cart of modding the arm etc. Go ahead....make your day!

Wayner · « **Reply #73 on:** 18 Nov 2006, 09:23 pm »

Plast-i-dots are on! I am finishing side 2 of the FIXX, Walkabout. WE HAVE BASS. We also have a clearer soundstage and almost zero surface noise. The music seems to come from out of blackness. There are no hints of "ssssss" and the cymbols have excellent attack and decay. The ambience of the recording is also more noticeable. This cartridge is tracking like a hound dog. Of course, it helps to have a new Audio by Van Alstine T8 all tube pre-amplifier feeding my AVA170exr amp feeding my mint Dynaco A25xl's. The FIXX is sure sounding damn good. This could end up to be a 5 hour listening session.

My suggestion to everyone:

Put on Plast-i-lator, Plast-i-band and Plast-i-dots.

(added later): I forgot to tell about the dots. I rolled some plasticlay into a roll about the size of a pencil. I then cut 2 dots about 1/16" thick. I put one dot on each side of the cartridge towards the back where there are some nice flat areas. This part of the AT440MLa is actually part of the stylus assembly. I then rolled the plasticlay until it was about 2/3 the diameter of a pencil and cut another piece about 1/16" thick. I put this on the front of the cartridge body.

Zero One · « **Reply #74 on:** 19 Nov 2006, 01:03 pm »

Hey there Wayner, really pleased to hear the mod worked well, it seems usnderstandable that it should help when we consider just how minute the vibs are within a cart, so anything that damps vibration we don't want should reap dividends.

I am currently working on an idea, which I will test tomorrow night, that involves mounting cut down matchsticks in a triangulated fashion between the side of the test cart, parallel with the internal contact between the cantilever and the plates that connect to the magnets, I figure this is closest too the potential source of vibration and movement. The matchsticks then wedge into blutac along the edge of the headshell. By my figuring this will kill stone dead any sideways movement of the cart at the bottom whilst still preventing vibration coming into the cart etc.

No doubt the first attempt will be messy and risky as I will need to drill into the cart a tiny bit to make a good location for the matchstick, but not to worry the carts are sacrificial, they only cost $10.00 each and I have a couple left.

I will keep you posted.

Psychicanimal · « **Reply #75 on:** 19 Nov 2006, 01:50 pm »

Quote from: Zero One on 18 Nov 2006, 10:37 am

I feel however the commercial product currently being talked about (the cartridge isolator) probably has a huge amount of potential development and it would be possible to produce a vastly superior item with more R and D.

Mother Nature already took care of that.

Stay tuned...

TheChairGuy · « **Reply #76 on:** 19 Nov 2006, 03:58 pm »

Hey guys - been travelling - and just catching up.

Tho The Plast-i-Band deadened my JVC's arm too much (again, it's oil damped in both verticval and horizontal planes already), The Plast-i-Dots are surely worthwhile so long as you have useable counterweight left to balance it. It gave the music a solidity, particularly noticeable in bass.

I did it long ago on my AT440ML/OCC (the vintage before Wayner's model)...I need to put a couple well placed dots on the Ortofon X5-MC and give it a whirl.

Tweek on with your bad selves

Psychicanimal · « **Reply #77 on:** 19 Nov 2006, 11:30 pm »

Marigo dots work wonderfully and are very light. I use them on the modded Groovemaster and on the gimbal assemblies of the tonearm.

gooberdude · « **Reply #78 on:** 21 Nov 2006, 12:02 am »

Posting a pic of a good tweak for tonearms with the dangly weight anti-skate.

that's the pro-ject carbon tonearm on an Expression tt.

the tape i've used is temporary, but it works really well.

http://i132.photobucket.com/albums/q14/mattcecil_photos/DSCN3805.jpg

Wayner · « **Reply #79 on:** 21 Nov 2006, 12:33 am »

Goober, you are always the MAN! aa