Class D versus the rest

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic. Read 189335 times.

Russell Dawkins

Re: Class D versus the rest
« Reply #840 on: 10 Nov 2014, 08:34 pm »
I've got 3 different class D amps, so I thought I'd give my impressions. I've got the Crown XLS 1500, and I bought it to use for my band practice PA. It works ok for that. For the heck of it, I decided to try it in my living room with my Pass Labs pre, and SP Tech Timepiece 3.0 speakers. My speakers are currently driven by a pair of Channel Islands D200 amps which sound absolutely wonderful. The Crown? It just plain sucked - really bright and edgy. I then hooked up the Crown to a pair of Tannoy PBM 6.5 monitors in my studio and it sounded just fine. I've also got a Class D Audio SDS-470CS and it is probably 93% of what the D200 amps are. Just a hair shy in the lows, but I wouldn't notice it if I didn't have the D200's. I've got the SDS powering a pair of ATC SCM-20SL in my studio and it kicks butt. I highly recommend the Class D Audio amps. For the money, it's a no-brainer. As for the Crown, it's worth trying with your speakers. Lots of places ship it free and you can always send it back (on your dime). It's lightweight, so the return shipping cost is worth the price of the audition.
Interesting, especially as regards driving the Timepieces. Is the Crown burned in? Did you try it on your ATCs?
Thanks.

werd

Re: Class D versus the rest
« Reply #841 on: 10 Nov 2014, 08:57 pm »
That's at rated output, I'm sure its lower below those power figures and it does include the 2 ohm rating power output, .5 thd  at full power into 2 ohm, is not bad and better than a lot of rated amplfiers, we would know more if we had it's full distortion spectra , say at 1/5/10 watt output, this affects home user more than full power specs.


Look at the 14B at 2 ohm @ rated output..... opps dats right , there is no 2 ohm rating , because it's power into 2 ohm is actually less than 4 and it's distortion exceeds 1% in matching it's 8 ohm rating ...




So much for specs huh ....  :lol:

I guess specs won't mean much if you can't read the graph right. This is ThD vs output power graph. It only tells you how the distortion tracks vs power.

spence

Re: Class D versus the rest
« Reply #842 on: 10 Nov 2014, 09:07 pm »
Hi Russell,
    I didn't try the Crown on the ATC. The SDS sounded really good on them so I just left it that way. The Crown didn't have much break in time when I tried it on the SP Tech. The SDS didn't have any break in time when I tried it on the SP Tech, and it sounded great right out of the box.
 

a.wayne

  • Full Member
  • Posts: 685
Re: Class D versus the rest
« Reply #843 on: 10 Nov 2014, 09:19 pm »
I guess specs won'mean much if you can't read the graph right. This is ThD vs output power graph. It only tells you how the distortion tracks vs power.



Dats some serious Irony ...........   :lol:

OzarkTom

Re: Class D versus the rest
« Reply #844 on: 10 Nov 2014, 10:10 pm »
I'm tempted to be on the tour, but I don't want to send it back out the way it came in.

I have two more used 1500's coming I this week, I will send one to Salis. I also have two 2500's on the way. The 2500 might have more room to mod, it is two inches deeper. I hit the jackpot, yesterday on Craigslist the 2500's were 200 bucks each, 1500's were 135 bucks each. The more used ones I buy, the bigger my rolaity check is from Crown. :D

Tomy2Tone

Re: Class D versus the rest
« Reply #845 on: 10 Nov 2014, 10:31 pm »
I have two more used 1500's coming I this week, I will send one to Salis. I also have two 2500's on the way. The 2500 might have more room to mod, it is two inches deeper. I hit the jackpot, yesterday on Craigslist the 2500's were 200 bucks each, 1500's were 135 bucks each. The more used ones I buy, the bigger my rolaity check is from Crown. :D

Nice!

I got to say as good as I thought one in stereo sounded, I think two in mono is a little better.  Looking forward to see if you find the same thing.

When do you expect the one that went to cryo back?

cab

Re: Class D versus the rest
« Reply #846 on: 10 Nov 2014, 10:42 pm »
The Crown is designed for use in a PA application.  Can one use it for home audio?  Yes.  Is it optimal?   I think not.




Check out these specs: (120 watt SS Amp)  I would argue that for most home applications, it's enough power.  Plus, it's flat from 20-20KHz.


Amplifier section Output Impedance (20 Hz - 20 kHz)< 0,01 ohm
RCA (single) input impedance 220 kohm
XLR (balanced) input impedance 110 kohm
Input sensitivity for rated output1 V
Max. peak current> 100 A
THD  (measured at 1 kHz -1 dB, 8 W)< 0,002 %
Noise (measured with both inputs shorted)400 Hz - 30 kHz : 90 µV  10 Hz - 30 kHz : 100 µV

Rated output power
8 ohms 2 x 120 W
4 ohms 2 x 200 W
2 ohms 2 x 350 W




]

Quite disingenuous of you to pick on specs when you seem to prefer tube amps which have terrible specs in comparison to class d amps like ncore....


cab

Re: Class D versus the rest
« Reply #847 on: 10 Nov 2014, 10:50 pm »
Some Class D amps (such as the Yamaha MX-D1) incorporates digital filtering as part of its topology.

It's an analog PWM amp. There is no digital filtering.

Folsom

Re: Class D versus the rest
« Reply #848 on: 10 Nov 2014, 10:58 pm »
0 on Craigslist in my region...

SteveFord

  • Volunteer
  • Posts: 6391
  • The poodle bites, the poodle chews it.
Re: Class D versus the rest
« Reply #849 on: 10 Nov 2014, 11:03 pm »
Freo-1,
Good, bad or indifferent I'll write up what I think. 
I'm not expecting too much but I'm always willing to be proven wrong!
The only Class D amp I've heard here (other than subwoofer amps) was kind of a dog and one manufacturer I wrote to about doing a short write up on a demo unit vanished...
However, if the Crown unit can work the magic I'll buy one for the upstairs system and if it bites I won't.
For what it's worth, the moldy oldies here (Carver, Bryston and Hafler) are all fine with MMGs but bite when they're paired with 1.7s or 3.7s.

a.wayne

  • Full Member
  • Posts: 685
Re: Class D versus the rest
« Reply #850 on: 10 Nov 2014, 11:14 pm »
0 on Craigslist in my region...

Same here ........

Freo-1

Re: Class D versus the rest
« Reply #851 on: 10 Nov 2014, 11:25 pm »
It's an analog PWM amp. There is no digital filtering.


Incorrect.  Read up on the Yamaha MX-D1.  It does indeed employ digital filtering. Bruno actually whinged about it:


"  The MXD1 uses a flash converter followed by a digital pulse width modulator  "  He then went on to complain about it being a unnecessary complication.  However, it is one of the reason that it sounds as good as it does, and did sound even better (IMHO) than the Ncore.  :o


Additionally, unlike most other Class D amps, the Yamaha runs pretty warm.




 

Freo-1

Re: Class D versus the rest
« Reply #852 on: 10 Nov 2014, 11:26 pm »
Freo-1,
Good, bad or indifferent I'll write up what I think. 
I'm not expecting too much but I'm always willing to be proven wrong!
The only Class D amp I've heard here (other than subwoofer amps) was kind of a dog and one manufacturer I wrote to about doing a short write up on a demo unit vanished...
However, if the Crown unit can work the magic I'll buy one for the upstairs system and if it bites I won't.
For what it's worth, the moldy oldies here (Carver, Bryston and Hafler) are all fine with MMGs but bite when they're paired with 1.7s or 3.7s.




No worries.  Would expect nothing less.  :thumb:

cab

Re: Class D versus the rest
« Reply #853 on: 10 Nov 2014, 11:59 pm »

Incorrect.  Read up on the Yamaha MX-D1.  It does indeed employ digital filtering.





It is analog in and has no ad/da stage. Digital filtering of what???

Here is a detailed product description:

http://download.yamaha.com/api/asset/file/?language=en&site=usa.yamaha.com&asset_id=35940

It makes no mention of any ad/da conversion or digital filter....

dlaloum

  • Full Member
  • Posts: 710
Re: Class D versus the rest
« Reply #854 on: 11 Nov 2014, 12:00 am »
A quick comment with regard to the Drivecore amps... with special note for those categorising it as a "PA" amp.

The drivecore topology and chipset was jointly developed by Harman and TI, and then deployed in the product range of three of Harman's brands: Crown, JBL and Lexicon.

For Lexicon they put out an 8 channel Home Theatre oriented amp
http://www.lexicon.com/productdetail/~/product/dd-8.html
http://www.cepro.com/article/hands_on_lexicon_dd_8_amplifier/
http://www.homecinemachoice.com/news/article/lexicon-dd-8-review/10794

Crown on the other hand caters to the pro musician, theater/home theatre custom installation and PA crowd with various drivecore models.

The differences between the various crown models seem oriented to the type of installation and interconnection needs, with the core amplification being identical between them.... they basically make a series of drivecore chips and deploy them in slightly different ways across the various models.

The key advantage of the XLS series we are discussing here, is that they are hugely mass produced, and sold at a rock bottom price, capturing a large part of the pro musician and PA market - but they still use the same tech (perhaps the same PCB's too) as the more expensive Crown Drivecore models.

They ubiquitous useage in the pro world, also sees them cropping up quite frequently used (and they have a transferable 3 year warranty which is nice) - at an even better price.

They clearly are not intended to compete with the likes of Pass, Mark Levinson (another Harman brand) etc...

However the release of the Drivecore amp in the Lexicon range (traditionally reserved for high end / audiophile - home theatres), seems an indication of the capabilities.

They also released Drivecore amps in the JBL Pro range, as well as in the JBL Synthesis high end range.

Seems to me that the Drivecore circuits are gradually proliferating through the Harman range, and their presence in a few high (er?) end products seems to be an indication of their potential.

Paired with the Gallo Ref 3.2's they seem to be a match made in heaven.

I approached the XLS series with great caution due to their PA market oriented marketing, but gave them he benefit of the doubt due to some reputable reviews (http://www.arccinema.com/crown-xls-drivecore-amplifier-review/ as well as various forums).

I am very glad I did.

Please give these the benefit of the doubt and have a listen.
I don't know that they will pair well with all speakers (I would have been hesitant to try them on my Quad Electrostatics), but their abilities seem to be an order of magnitude above their price bracket.

Much as I would love to put an XLS2500 up against an Electrocompaniet Nemo, or more appropriately an AW400, at $12.5k vs $1k for the XLS2500, the comparison hardley seems fair.

Still I look forward to hearing various peoples responses to their comparison of audiophile vs pro amps!

bye for now

David

OzarkTom

Re: Class D versus the rest
« Reply #855 on: 11 Nov 2014, 12:19 am »
I will re-post that Youtube video from Harman. Yes, they designed it for the true audio enthusiast.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qoGvOhGQX5M

A customer on Amazon wrote:

this amp outshines everything I demoed (Emotiva, Odyssey, Vincent, Class-D Audio and a couple of others not worth mentioning), except a Bryston 4B-SST which cost almost 10 times more.

lowtech

  • Full Member
  • Posts: 497
Re: Class D versus the rest
« Reply #856 on: 11 Nov 2014, 12:37 am »

...except a Bryston 4B-SST which cost almost 10 times more.


Automatic discredit of opinion.  Lol.

spence

Re: Class D versus the rest
« Reply #857 on: 11 Nov 2014, 01:02 am »
Amazon customer or not, the Crown certainly doesn't outshine my SDS. You can just see it under the console.


OzarkTom

Re: Class D versus the rest
« Reply #858 on: 11 Nov 2014, 01:13 am »
Amazon customer or not, the Crown certainly doesn't outshine my SDS. You can just see it under the console.


What power cord are you using? Stock?

werd

Re: Class D versus the rest
« Reply #859 on: 11 Nov 2014, 01:14 am »


Dats some serious Irony ...........   :lol:

Not only that you can't tell you posted excellent specs for a 2 ch amp  :lol:. I don't even own this 14B SST. I own the 14B SST/2 which  probably specs even better.