Class D versus the rest

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Freo-1

Class D versus the rest
« on: 26 Apr 2012, 11:59 pm »
Here is some data on digital amps:

http://www.eetimes.com/design/audio-design/4015267/Why-Class-D-Amplifiers-May-Test-Well-But-Often-Sound-Terrible

I have yet to hear a switching amp that can compare with a well designed Class A amp.

Rclark

Class D versus the rest
« Reply #1 on: 27 Apr 2012, 12:02 am »
This was all before ncore, hence "game changer"

Freo-1

Class D versus the rest
« Reply #2 on: 27 Apr 2012, 12:28 am »
This was all before ncore, hence "game changer"

Disagree.  No real engineering background to support the claim.  Switching amps ALL more or less work the same.   Unless the laws of physics have been somehow changed, this amp has the same limitations any switching amp has.   

lowtech

  • Full Member
  • Posts: 493
Class D versus the rest
« Reply #3 on: 27 Apr 2012, 12:43 am »
Disagree.  No real engineering background to support the claim.  Switching amps ALL more or less work the same.   Unless the laws of physics have been somehow changed, this amp has the same limitations any switching amp has.

If you took 10 minutes to research the Hypex modules you wouldn't have posted this drivel.  There have been some changes in the technology since your '05 eetimes article was published.  Here's a link if you are so inclined to educate yourself.

http://www.hypex.nl/docs/UcD180HG_datasheet.pdf

http://www.hypex.nl/docs/NC400_datasheet.pdf

cab

Class D versus the rest
« Reply #4 on: 27 Apr 2012, 12:44 am »
Disagree.  No real engineering background to support the claim.  Switching amps ALL more or less work the same.   ...

Which means nothing....All class A amps ALL more or less work the same too....Some clearly work better than others.

The specs of the Ncore are better than any other class d I am aware of. And based on the reviews to date, they perform at a very high level. The performance being reported at their price would certainly appear to be game changing....

Freo-1

Class D versus the rest
« Reply #5 on: 27 Apr 2012, 12:47 am »
Which means nothing....All class A amps ALL more or less work the same too....Some clearly work better than others.

The specs of the Ncore are better than any other class d I am aware of. And based on the reviews to date, they perform at a very high level. The performance being reported at their price would certainly appear to be game changing....

No, it means that class D has limitations that class A does not have.  Again, what engineering data is available that shows the limitations of switching amps have been overcome.  Have not seen it.

It took 20 to 30 years to get solid state to sound decent.  Switching amps have more issues to overcome.  Gonna take more than a couple of people stating it's better to validate.  How is it better?  What mods were made?  How do they work around the existing limitations/switching transients?  So, only hype/opinions.

Freo-1

Class D versus the rest
« Reply #6 on: 27 Apr 2012, 12:58 am »
The following explains some issues with switching amps:

http://www.hificritic.com/downloads/Class-D.pdf

I have not seen anything from the AES crowd that talks to how these issues have been addresssed.  All I have seen is marketing.

zybar

Class D versus the rest
« Reply #7 on: 27 Apr 2012, 01:09 am »
Here is some data on digital amps:

http://www.eetimes.com/design/audio-design/4015267/Why-Class-D-Amplifiers-May-Test-Well-But-Often-Sound-Terrible

I have yet to hear a switching amp that can compare with a well designed Class A amp.

Freo-1,

I agree with your general assertion that Class D amps don't sound as good as Class A amps.  I have been a huge Class A fan for years and continue to believe that overall it is a great approach to designing amps.

Granted it just a few of our opinions, but six people (myself included) who own or owned outstanding and well reviewed Class A amps from Atma-Sphere, Clayton Audio, Lamm, and Pass have now said that the Ncore amps performed as well or better.

Frankly, I could care less about technically proving or disproving the technology. 

I care about what I hear.

What I heard has made me purchase the Ncore modules.

George

medium jim

Class D versus the rest
« Reply #8 on: 27 Apr 2012, 01:49 am »
Here is some data on digital amps:

http://www.eetimes.com/design/audio-design/4015267/Why-Class-D-Amplifiers-May-Test-Well-But-Often-Sound-Terrible

Freo-1

I agree.  Having amps for a few days to audition isn't enough time to take them outside of the honeymoon effect.  A real "game changer" it is not by any stretch.  I have no doubt they are good and as I have noted before will have a niche place in the market.

Jim


I have yet to hear a switching amp that can compare with a well designed Class A amp.

kevinh

  • Jr. Member
  • Posts: 102
Class D versus the rest
« Reply #9 on: 27 Apr 2012, 01:55 am »
Disagree.  No real engineering background to support the claim.  Switching amps ALL more or less work the same.   Unless the laws of physics have been somehow changed, this amp has the same limitations any switching amp has.



All the article said was that the criteria & methods for testing a class d amp is different than for a linear amp. It didn't comment on the intrinsic quality of class d vs a linear amp.


All Calss AB amps work basically the same how based on ps design, crossover distortion, NFB ect they can sound dramatically different.

zybar

Class D versus the rest
« Reply #10 on: 27 Apr 2012, 02:04 am »


Jim,

I disagree that few days wasn't enough to evaluate the amps.     

My speaker/amp combo has been the same for almost three years.  Another year or so with the preamp and digital front end.

I know my system's sound very well, and can easily discern what an amplifier change is causing.

It's not like I am some wet behind the ears audiophile nor am I trying to claim the Ncore is a giant slayer because I can't afford the giant.

What it wasn't a long enough period of time for was to do a long term evaluation.  Hence, why I am not selling my amps quite yet.

George


kevinh

  • Jr. Member
  • Posts: 102
Class D versus the rest
« Reply #11 on: 27 Apr 2012, 02:26 am »
The following explains some issues with switching amps:

http://www.hificritic.com/downloads/Class-D.pdf

I have not seen anything from the AES crowd that talks to how these issues have been addresssed.  All I have seen is marketing.


This paper was written prior to the Hypex UcD much less the Ncore. They reference the nuforce which has had measurable problems. Cooolomm made the following points:

"Far from being simple and cost effective, Class D is a finely tuned and complex technology requiring immense care in its execution

medium jim

Class D versus the rest
« Reply #12 on: 27 Apr 2012, 02:34 am »
Speaking of getting out, there should be flotilla of digital amps at the upcoming Newport show and will again take them in.  I know there will be some of the usual suspects, Bel Canto, Moon, etc., to put an ear to.

At worst, it will give me a good yes, no, maybe.


Jim

Tyson

Class D versus the rest
« Reply #13 on: 27 Apr 2012, 02:40 am »
I'm extremely skeptical of any kind of digital amp, mainly because I've never heard one that I would consider mediocre, let alone "good".  But if Mike is very nice, maybe I'll get to hear his nCores at some point.  I do know for a fact that his system is absolutely ruthless in revealing weaknesses in upstream equipment.

medium jim

Class D versus the rest
« Reply #14 on: 27 Apr 2012, 03:31 am »
Cab:

I'm very cognizant of the strides made by class D, especially in Audiophile Mobile Audio.  Btw, I am the facilitator of a circle called Audiophile Mobile Audio and have a nice class D head unit. 8)

Jim

cab

Class D versus the rest
« Reply #15 on: 27 Apr 2012, 03:39 am »
Cab:

I'm very cognizant of the strides made by class D, especially in Audiophile Mobile Audio.  Btw, I am the facilitator of a circle called Audiophile Mobile Audio and have a nice class D head unit. 8)

Jim

Oranges and apples....

medium jim

Class D versus the rest
« Reply #16 on: 27 Apr 2012, 03:47 am »
Oranges and apples....

Not at all, but I do like class D for near field and that is what you get in mobile audio.  Understand, I'm not bagging on Class D, but am against those who are on the sidelines and are acting like high school teenagers with all of the hyperbole, which detracts from those who have actually auditioned the Ncores. 

The facilitator asked that this not happen and yet it did, again.  The personal attacks were also a contributing reason for part of the thread being parsed out and quarantined.

Jim

cab

Re: Class D versus the rest
« Reply #17 on: 27 Apr 2012, 11:58 am »
Not aware of any Hypex car audio products which means comparing car audio to home audio is like comparing the class d amps in cell phones to car audio.

Not uncommon for people to get excited about a product that performs at levels heretofore reserved for products at many multiples of the price. Rare in this hobby....

medium jim

Re: Class D versus the rest
« Reply #18 on: 27 Apr 2012, 12:32 pm »
Cab:

Simply put, if lived up to a 1/4 of the hype, it would be mainstream by now, not just in the DIY world.

Jim

OzarkTom

Re: Class D versus the rest
« Reply #19 on: 27 Apr 2012, 12:34 pm »
I have owned three amps with switching power supplies, and they all sounded 30-40% better running on a battery.

I would buy an Ncore in a heartbeat if it ran off of battery.