[jackman]

Hi Tomy2,

I'll be happy to take you up on the offer to compare the Crown to the NCore. I'll give my honest opinion and compare them fairly. If it's a tie, I'll buy a crown immediately and sell my current amp.  I am not sure it will prove anything to the Koolade drinkers in this thread because I can ready hear them saying the evaluation was not fair because the Crown wasn't cryo treated or that I failed to use the proper wood pucks or whatever snak oil they are slinging.

I've tried those gel pads, bags of lead pellets and other types of heavy rubber pucks on top of my gear and never noticed a bit of difference. Maybe the wood has a "warm" quality. Either way, PM me and we can work out the demo. 

Thanks

Jack

[roscoeiii]

And I'd happily head to Jack's to give another ears' opinions.  If we've got time  we could try em out  on my speakers too.

[Tomy2Tone]

Hi Tomy2,

I'll be happy to take you up on the offer to compare the Crown to the NCore. I'll give my honest opinion and compare them fairly. If it's a tie, I'll buy a crown immediately and sell my current amp.  I am not sure it will prove anything to the Koolade drinkers in this thread because I can ready hear them saying the evaluation was not fair because the Crown wasn't cryo treated or that I failed to use the proper wood pucks or whatever snak oil they are slinging.

I've tried those gel pads, bags of lead pellets and other types of heavy rubber pucks on top of my gear and never noticed a bit of difference. Maybe the wood has a "warm" quality. Either way, PM me and we can work out the demo. 

Thanks

Jack

Ok cool!  I just pm'd Rodge earlier because he was the first to respond but I did kind of single you out in my post. Let me see if he doesn't mind me sending it to you first so you and Roscoeiii can use it then maybe you guys could send on to him.

If I get the cedar rings today I'll throw some of them in for kicks.

[OzarkTom]

Ok cool!  I just pm'd Rodge earlier because he was the first to respond but I did kind of single you out in my post. Let me see if he doesn't mind me sending it to you first so you and Roscoeiii can use it then maybe you guys could send on to him.

If I get the cedar rings today I'll throw some of them in for kicks.

Chris, Jack, and Roscoe would make a very good first three on the your list.

[Tomy2Tone]

Chris, Jack, and Roscoe would make a very good first three on the your list.

Yeah, I'm not looking to start Amp Wars or nothing...even though that would be a funny reality show on Bravo. Not sure the rest of America would find it entertaining but I would! 

I have yet to hear an Ncore amp so it would fun to get somebody who not only owns one but really likes it and see how it compares or not to the crown.

We'll see. I'm sure this will be a harmless, fun, endeavor! 

[roscoeiii]

Why don't we see how everyone's schedules are looking to decide the order of things? I know jackman has  been busy and I'd like to have picked up my new speakers....

Mums the word in what those speakers are until I have them.  Don't want to jinx it. But word is that they like power.

[jackman]

Hi guys, I've it some time over the next couple weeks. Will invite Roscoe over and any other ACers who want to give a listen.  Just let me know what works for everyone.

The NCore amp is sounding very good at the moment. The Crown is up against stiff competition. 

[rodge827]

Ok cool!  I just pm'd Rodge earlier because he was the first to respond but I did kind of single you out in my post. Let me see if he doesn't mind me sending it to you first so you and Roscoeiii can use it then maybe you guys could send on to him.

If I get the cedar rings today I'll throw some of them in for kicks.

Ok I'll play along...gents let us know what you think? 

Chris

[Tomy2Tone]

Ok guys, I'll send it on to Jackman and he and whoever can put it through the paces for as long as you guys see fit. Then just kindly pass it on to rodge827.

Jackman- pm me your info and I'll get it out this week. There's a little pack of cedar rings inside the box for your enjoyment.   

Everybody play nice now!

[SteveFord]

Yeah, I'll give it a shot.  I'll compare it to some VTL 250s and see how they stack up.

[stehno]

I realize this thread is winding down but I'd like to offer some thoughts.

I think Class D amps carry a bit more baggage that need a bit more nurturing before they can realize their full potential which in some cases can easily surpass the performance of a more traditional Class A or A/B amp.  I just posted this response in another thread about Class D and line conditioning.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Based on my experiences limited to a number of class A/B amps and several class D amps all using superior line conditioners, my answer is absolutely yes.  More importantly, they respond positively under certain conditions.  Some of those conditions are related to the SMPS and some are not.

You also said, "I realize that the best SMPS is no SMPS".

I can see why some might think this but like anything, it depends on one's experiences and the extent to which one is willing to address potential problems.  So I'd like to offer a few thoughts on class D in general.

1.  Class D is digital and therefore by their very nature anything digital will induce a small audible amount of bi-directional digital noise back into the AC outlet.  If other components are sharing that same circuit, they will be contaminated with that digital noise.  Not the end of the world but it is audible and I presume the more components sharing that same outlet, the worse the amount of digital noise.

2.  To the best of my knowledge, most/all SMPS' are mounted on cheap PCB boards and then the PCB board is mounted to the chassis.  Unlike traditional power supplies that a heavier, more stout, ridid, etc. that are often times mounted directly to the chassis or mounted to a rigid plate that is mounted to the chassis.  This implies that any vibrations induced by the SMPS itself, or from a neighboring source within the PCB board and/or chassis, or simply any air-borne vibrations captured elsewhere in the chassis can have a potentially greater effect on the SMPS because such vibrations become more trapped in/around the SMPS.  IOW, if any vibrations in/around the SMPS are not free to travel elsewhere, they will begin their lengthy dissipation right there.  IOW, cheap, thin, fragile PCB board material is problaby far worse than MDF which is a horrible conductor for allowing mechanical energy to travel.

That said, line conditioning theoretically has more to do with universal noisy AC inducing its harm (distortions) on anything plugged into the wall.  Whether it be a refrig, an electric oven, an audio component, a traditional PS, or SMPS.  Since most of us are not anal about the performance of our refrigerators and ovens the distortions induced by noisy AC there go unnoticed.

However, in a well-thought-out playback system it is easily noticeable.  But then again, it can only be easily noticeable if one is able to hear that playback system with and without proper line conditioning.  Proper being the keyword here, because there are plenty of line conditioners that do little or nothing, or worse will induce their own sonic harm.

Which leads to the point of my answer to your question.  If, per chance, you're able to employ line conditioners worth owning, the level of improved musicality should be pretty tremendous, whether traditional power supplies or SMPS.

But with Class D you still have the added problem of bi-directional digital noise generated by the SMPS that still will go back out into the AC outlet and infiltrate your other components.  Therefore, you either need to ensure your line conditioner of choice is capable of bi-directional noise filtering, and/or you need to ensure every component has its own proper line conditioner.

Some may say that dedicated circuits/lines will cure/prevent this bi-directional noise from infiltrating the other components, but there are enough in-the-know who also will claim that bi-directional digital noise is capalbe of going all the way back to the AC service panel and then infiltrate other circuits/lines and other components.

There are also two other aspect to keep in mind with class D stereo amps and class D int. amps:

1) If there is only one AC inlet to the stereo or int. amp, this bi-directional noise will be shared between the L&R channels at the single AC inlet and there's not a external line conditioner in the world that can cure this internal problem.

2) Similar problems occur with an int. amp and the active pre-amp section.  The active preamp section must borrow AC power from one of the 2 channels to function.  Since both channels are already generating bi-directional digitial noise, that will carry forward to the preamp section of the int. amp.

Having experienced these situations myself, knowing what I think I know and the tremendous audible improvement potentials, I would not own a stereo class D amp, nor a stereo class D int. amp unless each channel had their own AC inlet.  But I do own a pair of class D monoblock amps and I have some fabulous performance-oriented dedicated, passive, and bi-directional filtering line conditioners on every component.  And just like my previous class A/B amps and int. amps, my class D amps benefit equally from proper line conditioning.

Finally, there's the issue of potentially more inferior / less proper vibration control with SMPS modules, but that's outside the scope of this thread.

With regard to your statement about the best SMPS is no SMPS, I recently swapped out a highly rated $8k class A/B int. amp for a pair of small mono block class D $2.4k amps and with careful consideration and solutions to their known issues, that highly-rated $8k int. amp now sounds like a $200 BestBuy receiver in comparison to the level of musicllity I'm now able to achieve via the class D mono blocks.

I've also owned other class D amps from 2006 - 2011 with not too dissimilar experiences and successes but recent revelations have allowed me to take class D much further this time around.

In sum, class D technology brings a bit more baggage that needs to be considered, analyzed, and addresssed and if they are properly addressed, there are potentially huge musical gains to be had.  Yes, I said huge as in larger than large.

[Freo-1]

Yeah, I'll give it a shot.  I'll compare it to some VTL 250s and see how they stack up.

I'll be keen to hear your observations.  I would like to get an opportunity to audition this as well.  I'll compare it to a pair of 1625 mono blocks, and a Electrocompaniet AW2-120. 

[Folsom]

As I mentioned in another thread,

"SMPS's are switching devices and not any more digital than class D amplifier that's not digital at all.

You could say because they operate on a on/off switching they're like digital 010101, except that class D creates a sign wave, and SMPS's don't send data, just a 0-1hz DC.

However they use very small transformers so they're much more likely to make common mode noise, which I discussed some in another post you've read. But also the power supplies tend to be pretty low impedance, which is good and bad. The funny thing is on the output you get filtration that typically starts at the input, but some tend to lack the same amount of filtration on the return paths; if any at all. It's relatively easy for noise to leave the device, in other words. This is very simplified, and not entirely universal. Basically AC (noise) seeks a low impedance path, and SMPS's may provide one that isn't through the filtration."

[cab]

class d is not digital, nor are all smps and their circuit boards cheap. Read some of Bruno Putzeys' papers and look into the Hypex smps. They are state of the art.

[stehno]

Class D is not digital?   Granted not all SMPS' are digital.

Are you and/or Bruno are saying that the vast major of "class D" amps on the market today are not controlled by digital circuits nor do they include digital signal processing devices?

I'm well out of my league when it comes to this stuff, but it seems to me most Class D mfg'ers classify their amps as digital and many smarter than me have classified Class D amps in general as digital.  In fact, near as I can tell the industry as a whole for the past few decades has by default classified Class D as digital.

When I've done some limited experiments testing for what I presumed was digital distortions and cures, the audible characteristics of the distortions and remedies were as though they were the results of digital noise.

So I'm curious, when did Class D cease being known as digital to the masses?

As for Bruno's products at Hypex?  Although he may or may not be building a better Class D mousetrap, from the pics there of his SMPS' and amp modules, looks to me like he's using similar cheap PCB boards that others use.  IOW, I'm not seeing any T-6061 aluminum or steel boards used instead of cheap PCB boards by Bruno.  Maybe it's a better grade of PCB material than others but IMO it's still cheap and not condusive to rapidly transmitting mechanical energy.  Just like pine or balsa wood is not condusive.

Why would you say Bruno doesn't use cheap PCB boards?

[mjosef]

Some 'brave' person(s) need to try the SpeakOn connectors which is the superior interface to the speakers/amp...the photo below shows the obvious.




This is a close-up of the speakon vs the binding post connection to the PCB in my Crown Xti, which is identical to the XLS series (not the circuit, just the speaker connector parts). There is a notable difference in the sound depending on which is used.
IMO the '2-way(?)' binding post used on the Crown is a poor alternate to the Neutrik SpeakOn connector.

[Folsom]

You don't want to know what aluminum PCB costs....

[werd]

So I'm curious, when did Class D cease being known as digital to the masses?

[cab]

What is known as Class D amps are not digital amps. They are analog PWM amps with analog input, analog output and analog feedback/correction.

Here are two quotes from Bruno:
From:
http://www.hypex.nl/docs/papers/AES124BP.pdf

"•“Digital amplifier” is an oxymoron
Voltage, current and time are physical quantities
(analogue).
•Digital is strings of numbers.

•Speakers don’t understand numbers.

•Class D requires analogue design skills to make work."

And from:
http://www.audioholics.com/audio-amplifier/the-truth-about-digital-class-d-amplifiers

"Firstly I'd like to point out that "digital amps" is a misnomer."

There are others. Search with Google and you can easily find plenty more.

As for the Hypex smps, what I meant was they are not cheap, they are extremely well designed, engineered, and perform in a superior fashion. What more do you want?

[*Scotty*]

stehno, when the incoming signal to be amplified is in the analogue domain and stays in the analogue all the way through the amplifier to the binding posts, then the switch mode amplifier is an analogue amplifier. If the incoming signal is digital, say via an SPDIF connection and stays in the digital domain in some form and is subsequently amplified then you could call it a digital amplifier or a power DAC.
See links below.
http://sound.westhost.com/articles/pwm.htm
The wiki for Class D isn't too bad. As always trust but verify before accepting Wiki content as true.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Class-D_amplifier
For some years now "DIGITAL" has been used as a marketing buzz word implying goodness.
Scotty