Class D versus the rest

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stehno

Re: Class D versus the rest
« Reply #800 on: 10 Nov 2014, 12:59 am »
Thanks, Scotty.  But I also understand that if there's any digital processing or conversion along the way, then it ceases to be known as analog and becomes digital.

Cab, when I spoke of cheap PCB boards, that's what I meant, cheap PCB materials, which Bruno also seems to utilize.  What more do I want?  Well, considering I know nothing about Bruno or his wares, nothing really.  My point was only about cheap PCB material being an extremely poor conduit for mechanical energy and you said Bruno's weren't cheap.  Yet Bruno's PCB boards appear to be no more superior than the Crown amp's PCB somebody just posted and indeed appear cheap as do most PCB boards. 

So help me clarify your and/or Bruno's stance. 

Are you speaking for the majority of the industry or just you and Bruno when you say "class D is not digital"?

Are you and/or Bruno saying that the vast majority of "class D" amps on the market today are not controlled by digital circuits nor do they include digital signal processing devices?   Yes or no only please.

Tomy2Tone

Re: Class D versus the rest
« Reply #801 on: 10 Nov 2014, 01:42 am »
Some 'brave' person(s) need to try the SpeakOn connectors which is the superior interface to the speakers/amp...the photo below shows the obvious.




This is a close-up of the speakon vs the binding post connection to the PCB in my Crown Xti, which is identical to the XLS series (not the circuit, just the speaker connector parts). There is a notable difference in the sound depending on which is used.
IMO the '2-way(?)' binding post used on the Crown is a poor alternate to the Neutrik SpeakOn connector.


Do they make adapters for speakon connectors to be used with banana plugs? Or do you just have to have speakon connectors on your speakers?

TomS

Re: Class D versus the rest
« Reply #802 on: 10 Nov 2014, 01:47 am »
Thanks, Scotty.  But I also understand that if there's any digital processing or conversion along the way, then it ceases to be known as analog and becomes digital.

Cab, when I spoke of cheap PCB boards, that's what I meant, cheap PCB materials, which Bruno also seems to utilize.  What more do I want?  Well, considering I know nothing about Bruno or his wares, nothing really.  My point was only about cheap PCB material being an extremely poor conduit for mechanical energy and you said Bruno's weren't cheap.  Yet Bruno's PCB boards appear to be no more superior than the Crown amp's PCB somebody just posted and indeed appear cheap as do most PCB boards. 

So help me clarify your and/or Bruno's stance. 

Are you speaking for the majority of the industry or just you and Bruno when you say "class D is not digital"?

Are you and/or Bruno saying that the vast majority of "class D" amps on the market today are not controlled by digital circuits nor do they include digital signal processing devices?   Yes or no only please.
No. There isn't any digital conversion happening, as in no A/D conversion. It's a pulse width modulated analog signal, driving an output stage that switches the output devices on/off to increase the voltage/power for speaker levels, with a low pass filter to smooth it all out. If you choose your own rules such that to you, switching = digital, you're on your own.

Perhaps you should take this discussion to the Lab Circle where the technical types can better answer your questions. You might also identify yourself here as an industry participant, if that's the case.

mjosef

Re: Class D versus the rest
« Reply #803 on: 10 Nov 2014, 01:52 am »
Quote
Do they make adapters for speakon connectors to be used with banana plugs? Or do you just have to have speakon connectors on your speakers?

Never seen adapters, but my all-seeing-eye ain't what it once was...
You just need a cable with a male speakon connector to plug into the amp end...

cab

Re: Class D versus the rest
« Reply #804 on: 10 Nov 2014, 02:19 am »


Are you and/or Bruno saying that the vast majority of "class D" amps on the market today are not controlled by digital circuits nor do they include digital signal processing devices?   Yes or no only please.

Yes, that is what is being said.

G Georgopoulos

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Re: Class D versus the rest
« Reply #805 on: 10 Nov 2014, 03:06 am »

Are you and/or Bruno saying that the vast majority of "class D" amps on the market today are not controlled by digital circuits nor do they include digital signal processing devices?   Yes or no only please.

yes they are controlled!! (cpu,memmory,display,interface,other...etc...)but class-d is analog

werd

Re: Class D versus the rest
« Reply #806 on: 10 Nov 2014, 03:34 am »
It's actually pretty easy to confuse the differences.

G Georgopoulos

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Re: Class D versus the rest
« Reply #807 on: 10 Nov 2014, 03:45 am »
If the incoming signal is digital, say via an SPDIF connection and stays in the digital domain in some form and is subsequently amplified then you could call it a digital amplifier or a power DAC.


power dac... :thumb:

mamba315

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Re: Class D versus the rest
« Reply #808 on: 10 Nov 2014, 06:12 am »
Some 'brave' person(s) need to try the SpeakOn connectors which is the superior interface to the speakers/amp...the photo below shows the obvious.




I could do that if I joined the "tour."  My Geddes speakers have Speakon inputs, and I also have the Maraschino class D monoblocks to compare against.

a.wayne

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Re: Class D versus the rest
« Reply #809 on: 10 Nov 2014, 03:18 pm »
Let the games begin .............  :D

a.wayne

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Re: Class D versus the rest
« Reply #810 on: 10 Nov 2014, 03:20 pm »
He has ncore and everyone else should too!  Soooo annoying.

-Jim

Maybe an encore after the comparisons .............  :D

steve f

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Re: Class D versus the rest
« Reply #811 on: 10 Nov 2014, 04:36 pm »
If you guys get the chance to send an amp around, please post your impressions. I'm traveling too much these days to join in, but you will influence my purchase decision.

Freo-1

Re: Class D versus the rest
« Reply #812 on: 10 Nov 2014, 05:27 pm »
Some Class D amps (such as the Yamaha MX-D1) incorporates digital filtering as part of its topology.  I think that is one of the reasons (along with a serious overbuild quality) that I liked it a lot (even though it wa Class D).   :thumb:


The Class D certainly is a viable option to get loads of clean power at a reasonable cost.  I have heard a few that sound excellent.  Having said that (IMHO), there is still a little ways to go to catch up to the best SS has to offer.  The Electrocompaniet amp I have still does a better overall job at reproducing music in several key areas compared to the Class D offerings I have auditioned to date.  They certainly are getting closer (at least the better ones). 


Disclaimer:  Still prefer tube amps overall.   :lol:

DaveC113

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Re: Class D versus the rest
« Reply #813 on: 10 Nov 2014, 05:52 pm »
I doubt the Crown is going to be preferred over amps like higher end Electrocompaniet and VAC, those are serious money. But for folks that have a more modest budget I think the Crowns might be the best bet for under $XXX... I'm not sure how much cash it would take to buy an amp that is clearly superior but I bet it would be an order of magnitude over the price of the Crowns.


werd

Re: Class D versus the rest
« Reply #814 on: 10 Nov 2014, 05:57 pm »
Some Class D amps (such as the Yamaha MX-D1) incorporates digital filtering as part of its topology.  I think that is one of the reasons (along with a serious overbuild quality) that I liked it a lot (even though it wa Class D).   :thumb:


The Class D certainly is a viable option to get loads of clean power at a reasonable cost.  I have heard a few that sound excellent.  Having said that (IMHO), there is still a little ways to go to catch up to the best SS has to offer.  The Electrocompaniet amp I have still does a better overall job at reproducing music in several key areas compared to the Class D offerings I have auditioned to date.  They certainly are getting closer (at least the better ones). 


Disclaimer:  Still prefer tube amps overall.   :lol:

You think  :lol:.  At least home audio can produce specs at 20 to 20khz. This page right from Crown shows .5% at 1khz including their power rating. It means it's embarssingly high THd at 20 to 20khz while severely over rated in power.

http://www.crownaudio.com/media/storagebk/pdf/amps/XLS_Datasheet_CRO137.pdf

a.wayne

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Re: Class D versus the rest
« Reply #815 on: 10 Nov 2014, 06:29 pm »
That's at rated output, I'm sure its lower below those power figures and it does include the 2 ohm rating power output, .5 thd  at full power into 2 ohm, is not bad and better than a lot of rated amplfiers, we would know more if we had it's full distortion spectra , say at 1/5/10 watt output, this affects home user more than full power specs.


Look at the 14B at 2 ohm @ rated output..... opps dats right , there is no 2 ohm rating , because it's power into 2 ohm is actually less than 4 and it's distortion exceeds 1% in matching it's 8 ohm rating ...




So much for specs huh ....  :lol:




 

Freo-1

Re: Class D versus the rest
« Reply #816 on: 10 Nov 2014, 06:35 pm »
That's at rated output, I'm sure its lower below those power figures and it does include the 2 ohm rating power output, .5 thd  at full power into 2 ohm, is not bad and better than a lot of rated amplfiers, we would know more if we had it's full distortion spectra , say at 1/5/10 watt output, this affects home user more than full power specs.


I think the point Werd is making is that the Crown is Public Address amp, NOT a full scale audio amp.  PA amps make no claim to full frequency response.  They are closer to guitar amps in that regard.

a.wayne

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Re: Class D versus the rest
« Reply #817 on: 10 Nov 2014, 06:38 pm »
Based on published and unconfirmed specs, he would be wrong ..... His 14B has more THD/IMD than the crown at rated 2 ohm power, even when using 8ohm power ratings ...

roscoeiii

Re: Class D versus the rest
« Reply #818 on: 10 Nov 2014, 06:43 pm »
Yes, it would be great to see such a graph for the Crowns. Surprised this hasn't been done...

Freo-1

Re: Class D versus the rest
« Reply #819 on: 10 Nov 2014, 06:43 pm »
Based on published and unconfirmed specs, he would be wrong ..... His 14B has more THD/IMD than the crown at rated 2 ohm power, even when using 8ohm power ratings ...


The Crown is a PA amp, not a 20-20Khz audio amp.  Not sure we have a good set of specs fro the entire audio frequency range.