[Construct]

I have a rogue theory about 2001, I'll post it here to see what you think.  At the end of the movie, Dave Bowman transcends his humanity and becomes the star child.  We all assume that in that last scene, where he re-visits earth, that it occurs chronologically after all of the other events in the movie, right?  In other words, we assume that he went home to earth in order to be the harbinger of the higher level of being to the rest of the human race.  Seems logical.

But, if he transcended his humanity, he also likely transcended the boundaries of time (just like he transcended the boundaries of space).  My thought is this - what if his visit to earth actually occurred in the past?  What if the monoliths were created and put in place by Bowman?  What if Bowman set in motion all the events that resulted in his own transcendence? 

THAT would be a very Kubrickian idea, indeed!

That movie has been dissected and postulated ad nauseum since about 5 minutes after the first critic saw it.  I must have read about 50 variants of that by now. 

[Tyson]

Then you must read far more critics than I do.....

Anyway, people often assume that 2001 is Kubrick's deepest and most profound movie, since it is so obviously and self-consciously "great" and "deep".  But, I would argue that ALL of his movies after Strangelove are just as great and deep, he just learned to disguise it better.

[Construct]

Then you must read far more critics than I do.....

I used to read a lot of different media reviews of just about everything.  Nowadays, I skim over rotten tomatoes for a good cross-section of opinionalysis.

[Tyson]

I hate RT, one of the worst inventions ever.  But, then again, I generally hate critics. 

[drphoto]

Scotch or not Tyson, I think your insights are very interesting and spot on. Hell I liked EWS for the reasons you mentioned. As a 'conventional' movie...it falls flat, but there is some really interesting stuff in there.

I even liked AI. I find it hard to watch because I think it's incredibly sad. Yeah, I'd love to have seen SK follow it to the end, but I can see his hand in much of it.

I've been a big SK fan for about as long as I can remember. I begged my mother to take me to see 2001 at the cinema in '68 when I was 9 years old, as I'd just read the book. Yeah....I was one geeky little kid. (hmmm, not much has changed I suppose......)

[Construct]

I hate RT, one of the worst inventions ever.  But, then again, I generally hate critics.

Critics (especially Siskel and Ebert and the rest)  often miss the mark by a mile.  That, or they joygasm over movies that I'd only see if forced at gunpoint.   Although, They can be useful in occasionally avoiding questionable dreck.

[Tyson]

Thanks drphoto!

In one sense, you can actually look at Kubrick's movies as rather scathing critiques of the human condition - each focused on a different facet.  Strangelove as criticism of the cold war.  The Shining as criticism of the nuclear family unit.  Full Metal Jacket as criticism of war heroism, 2001 is a criticism of the idea that technology advances humanity, Barry Lyndon is a criticism of the royal class, Clockwork Orange is a criticism of the government, the left and the right, and a criticism of the adulation of youth.  Finally, EWS is a criticism of money, power, sex, marriage, and the economic elite.  Wow!

[TONEPUB]

Always liked Barry Lyndon and felt that Dangerous Liasons was kind of a cheap ripoff on some levels.

[Tyson]

Oh, I forgot to mention one of my absolute favorite parts of EWS!  OK, so Dr. Bill is at Victor Ziegler's party at the very beginning and is about to find out "where the rainbow ends" with the 2 models, when he's called away, upstairs.  Turns out Ziegler and his (red haired) prostitute have a bit of a problem.  She's OD'd on a coke/heroin mix and it's not looking good for her (or Ziegler).

But!  Here's the gag - when Bill comes in, Ziegler is "just now" putting on his pants/clothes.  When Bill asks him how long the girl has been comatose, Ziegler says "I don't know, about 5 minutes."  DO YOU KNOW WHAT THAT MEANS?  It means that Ziegler has been pounding away on her for the last 5 minutes while she was unconscious!  Hell, why let a little drug overdose get in the way of getting off....

[drphoto]

Well, once again, I think you are spot on about your observation of the comparisons of the super-rich to the simply well-to-do....let alone the rest of us..........

PM or email, me if you wanna shoot the s**t.

joe

[Tyson]

drphoto,
PM Sent!

It's interesting that you mention AI, since I absolutely hate Spielberg as a serious director.  He's like the adolescent that never grew up.  You can see the difference in styles between him and Kubrick quite easily.  Spielberg will direct each scene to it's emotional climax, then cut away to the next scene.  But, Kubrick will not cut at the emotional climax, he will stay on a scene past that, because he wants to examine what happens next, to see the characters coming to grips with their actions (or, sometimes, NOT coming to grips with their actions).  You can see the fingerprints of Kubrick on AI, but it's been almost completely usurped by Spielberg's heavy-handed direction.

[Tyson]

And, in case anyone is wondering, tonight it's sherry spike with a little Talisker.

[Tyson]

Oh, and if you ever want a true mind-trip, watch one of Kubrick's movie with the sound off.  See what you see.

[Ronm1]

At the time, I thought the movie was good but weird in the standard Kubrick way.  I am more familiar with Clockwork Orange and Apocalypse Now than the others. (AN was Kubrick right?) 
 

As pointed earlier AN was Coppola, you may be thinking of Full Metal Jacket.  Nam but a more urban setting.
Tyson, you should be a critic, I'd read your column on FRI.

[Tyson]

Thanks Ronm1!  But I could never be a critic, because I'd have to watch a bunch of crappy, crappy movies every week, and then try to come up with something creative to say about them.  Talk about a soul-killer!

It's like I told a friend of mine recently - I don't read the newspaper, I read history books.  It's a difference in perspective.

[Tyson]

Back on the EWS topic - another thing to notice, Kubrick uses paintings to comment on what's happening in the lives of the characters.  For example, when Dr. Bill is in his office, he asks his receptionist for coffee.  Behind him, on the wall, is a painting of some coffee beans!  And, during his argument with his wife, he makes the point that he is very clinical and removed from any sexual thoughts while at the office.  But, if you notice, there is a painting of a couple "en flagrante" on his walls.  Or, later, when Bill is in the coffee shop about to read the paper reporting the death of the prostitute who "saved" him at the black mass, the paintings/pictures on the wall are all of women from different points of history, all while Mozart's Requiem plays in the background.  It's not just the death of one woman who was abused and cast aside, but rather of ALL women who have been chewed up by men with power over them. 

Or, later, when he's confronting Victor Ziegler in the pool room, there's a shot of Victor standing above Bill, while Bill is leaning on the pool table.  Above Ziegler's shoulder is a painting of a dog and his master, in the same positions.  The message is again clear - Bill is the dog/servant, and Ziegler is clearly the master.

As Denzel Washington says in Training Day - "This sh!t just gets deeper..."

[Tyson]

Barry Lyndon - a study in the unreliable narrator.

Ever notice in this movie that Barry is Irish, but the narrator is British?  And that the narrator is clearly commenting on things that have happened in the past?  This is important.  The British generally have a very dim view of the Irish.  And Barry is particularly odious since he's an interloper that actually manages to climb the social ladder.  Remember that the British were (are) very much a class-based society, and anyone who tries to "jump their station" is going to be squashed with perverse satisfaction.  And so it goes in Barry Lyndon.  Within this context, of course his attempts to raise up result in tragedy (and physical deformity).  And, notice that the narrator always assigns terrible motives and character flaws to Barry, but if you look at his actions objectively, he's a pretty brave and honorable fellow. 

Again, Kubrick's fascination with the unreliable narrator....

[drphoto]

Hey Tyson, whaddya think of Terrence Malick? Maybe not the complex layering of images of SK, but a wonderfully visual director IMHO.

[TONEPUB]

I'd say with no more Kubrick, Spike Lee is my favorite living director, with David Lynch a very close 2nd.

[PhilNYC]

David Lynch is my #1...