Pacman vs. Marquez III

jackman · « **Reply #20 on:** 13 Nov 2011, 10:09 am »

Quote from: rave959 on 13 Nov 2011, 07:26 am

I think it's to lure Mayweather to fight. They're planning the match sometime in May 2012.

Ever hear the expression "styles make fights"? These guys are just a good matchup. Neigh guy has ever given less than 100%. To suggest otherwise is pure ignorance.

jimdgoulding · « **Reply #21 on:** 13 Nov 2011, 11:25 am »

Now, see, this is what I'm talking about. Marquez has a rematch clause in his contract, I've read. Did either fighter look like they were going to destroy the other during the course of the fight? Where were the knockdowns? Manny was supposed to have been so much stronger. Pacman has more incentive to win by decision at this stage in his career. If he destroys Marquez, he scares Mayweather. Narrowly win by decision and he has TWO options for big paydays. Marquez for a fourth time AND Mayweather. Bradley, too, perhaps, in the interim. Money doesn't talk, it screams! I respect Jackman's opinion, I just don't share it.

django11 · « **Reply #22 on:** 13 Nov 2011, 03:43 pm »

Quote from: jimdgoulding on 13 Nov 2011, 11:25 am

Where were the knockdowns? Manny was supposed to have been so much stronger.

We were wrong.

In boxing you often get: boxer A dominates boxer B. Boxer C out boxes boxer A. Boxer B KOs boxer C. Rinse and repeat...

It looked a lot like their first two fights...

jackman · « **Reply #23 on:** 13 Nov 2011, 04:51 pm »

Quote from: django11 on 13 Nov 2011, 03:43 pm

We were wrong.

In boxing you often get: boxer A dominates boxer B. Boxer C out boxes boxer A. Boxer B KOs boxer C. Rinse and repeat...

It looked a lot like their first two fights...

Good observation. Boxing is not like a math equasion. Like they say, "styles make fights". Joe Frasier gave Ali all he could handle, but Foreman destroyed Frasier, and Ali beat Foreman. JMM has given Manny all he could handle in every fight. Manny has too much at stake to take it easy and he is a warrior who doesn't know the meaning of "hold back and take it easy". Yesterday's fight was not exception. These two fighters have styles that make fights very close.

JMM came in to yesterday's fight looking ripped with lots of added muscle and Manny was as fit as ever. I think they both had some very good "nutritional supplements", trained hard and had great game-plans. My friends had the fight on pay per view and thought it could have gone either way, or that it was a draw. Too much money at stake for Manny to lose that one. No one wants to pay money to see a Floyd/JMM rematch.

I'm not one for conspiracy theories. Whether Floyd ever grows testicles and agrees to fight Manny has nothing to do with last night's fight. As long as Floyd makes big bucks fighting guys he knows he can beat, he may never fight Pacman. It makes me sick but is a sad reality of boxing.

rave959 · « **Reply #24 on:** 13 Nov 2011, 04:56 pm »

Exactly!!! It's business. I do respect Jackman's opinion as well. There is just way too much money involved.

Pacquiao just pocketed about 22 million right off the bat for this fight!

The Pacquiao and Mayweather fight will garner 30 million each, easy.

Quote from: jimdgoulding on 13 Nov 2011, 11:25 am

Now, see, this is what I'm talking about. Marquez has a rematch clause in his contract, I've read. Did either fighter look like they were going to destroy the other during the course of the fight? Where were the knockdowns? Manny was supposed to have been so much stronger. Pacman has more incentive to win by decision at this stage in his career. If he destroys Marquez, he scares Mayweather. Narrowly win by decision and he has TWO options for big paydays. Marquez for a fourth time AND Mayweather. Bradley, too, perhaps, in the interim. Money doesn't talk, it screams! I respect Jackman's opinion, I just don't share it.

jimdgoulding · « **Reply #25 on:** 13 Nov 2011, 05:15 pm »

It's not hard to understand. These fighters have achieved the pinnacle in their sport, world championships, now it becomes about something else. Taking something away for their effort. Something tangible.

django11 · « **Reply #26 on:** 13 Nov 2011, 05:16 pm »

Quote from: jackman on 13 Nov 2011, 04:51 pm

Too much money at stake for Manny to lose that one.

Pacquiao stars in films and is a singer. He has quite a few endorsements. He made 25$million for pummeling Antonio Margarito. He is a hero in his country and a member of Congress. He hopes to run for the presidency some day and wants to put an end to corruption. Call me naive but I think that Pacquiao is too rich and takes his role as an example of probity much to seriously to be involved in any hanky panky to get a fight with Mayweather.

YMMV

jackman · « **Reply #27 on:** 13 Nov 2011, 05:22 pm »

You guys know nothing about Pacman. This fight was a carbon copy of the previous two fights. If they fought a fourth time, I suspect we would see the same thing. All of the fights between these guys were close. Lastly, Floyd is no dummy. He knows more about boxing than anyone on this thread and, IMO, any other fighter in the game. I can't stand the guy but he is a monster talent.

If the fight ever goes down between Pac Man and Pretty Boy, Manny had better bring his A game because Floyd will be the best fighter (by far) Manny has ever faced. I'll pay the $$$ to watch this one but if Floyd wins, I may never watch a boxing match again! ...until the rematch of course!

Cheers,

Jack

PS - did anyone catch the James Kirkland, Alfredo Angulo fight last Saturday? Now that Kirkland is back with his excellent trainer, Ann Wolf, he seems to have his head on straight and his boxing skills polished very nicely. He destroyed a very tough Angulo, after getting knocked down by a nasty right hand in the first round. Not many guys get off the deck after the beating he took during the first half of that first round but Kirkland looked very sharp. Angulo is a tough dude and he took a savage beating at the hands of Kirkland. Kirkland is back and ready to do some serious damage in the 154lb weight class. I'd love to see him step up in weight and face Sergio Martinez. That would be an exciting fight and I'd pick Kirkland (as long as he sticks with Ann Wolf's training!).

jackman · « **Reply #28 on:** 13 Nov 2011, 05:30 pm »

Quote from: django11 on 13 Nov 2011, 05:16 pm

Pacquiao stars in films and is a singer. He has quite a few endorsements. He made 25$million for pummeling Antonio Margarito. He is a hero in his country and a member of Congress. He hopes to run for the presidency some day and wants to put an end to corruption. Call me naive but I think that Pacquiao is too rich and takes his role as an example of probity much to seriously to be involved in any hanky panky to get a fight with Mayweather.

YMMV

Hey, I agree with you. Manny would not play games (like going easy on JMM to lure Floyd into a fight) or paying off officials. However, there are many people looking for the Manny/Floyd payday and boxing is the most corrupt sport on the planet. The only way Manny could have lost that fight last night is if he was knocked out. Even then, he would have been given every chance to get up and the ten count would have been in slow motion (maybe they would have given him a Phillipino and English translation to slow it down). Lots of people looking for the biggest payday in boxing, but I think Manny is clean. He's my favorite boxer and I was hoping he would beat JMM.

If Manny lost to JMM, Floyd would have an excuse not to fight him. I hate floyd and hope Manny puts Floyd out of boxing perminantly with a savage knockout like the one he gave Ricky Hatton! Not likely but it's fun to dream. Floyd is the best defensive fighter in boxing. He's also one of the fastest and has the best footwork in the game and has amazing power (much better power than Manny, IMO). I admire his skill but do not like him as a person. My favorite fighter fighting my least favorite makes for a very exciting match, one that I'll pay money to watch. Looks like I'm in good company!

jimdgoulding · « **Reply #29 on:** 13 Nov 2011, 06:22 pm »

Manny had more to lose in trading with Marquez. All the things that have been cited already. The thing he must not do is get hurt from a punch he didn't see coming. So, he uses his head. He boxes and picks his battles. Marquez is a great combination puncher so Manny initiates action to score points but also moves away to avoid counters. Marquez has to be more cautious, too, because it was the knockdowns that lost him the two previous fights with Manny. He is a better technical fighter but must avoid being knocked down. If they had fought with more abandon, there would have been more risk. Manny's legs are so good he can be in another place quickly. Was he ever hurt? All those things dictated a more controlled fight. The world wasn't going to end with a decision victory. Of course, the fans were looking for the fight of the century. I've just explained why they didn't get it. You was robbed and just don't know it. What happened made good business sense.

django11 · « **Reply #30 on:** 13 Nov 2011, 06:44 pm »

First, I can't say I have a problem with the decision. It was a close fight. You can be totally dominated in five rounds and just barely win 7 and you win the fight, even if your face looks like tenderized steak.

Marquez is the best fighter Manny has fought in a long time. Floyd showed us he is superior to Marquez. I fear Floyd's defensive counter punching style will make Manny look like a rank amateur. Too bad cause I hate Floyd and I avoid giving him any of my money.

Kirkland did well in beating a punched out Perro but I don't think he is ready for Martinez just yet. Martinez won't be standing there with his chin hanging out

. I think that that is a bad fight for Kirkland. He should go after the Mexicans: Chavez junior and Alvarez. They would be entertaining fights.

Best fight of the night yesterday: Prescott-Alvarado...

jackman · « **Reply #31 on:** 13 Nov 2011, 07:10 pm »

We agree more than disagree. These guys are two great fighters and JMM had more gas in the tank than I expected. Do t kid yourself, Manny would have loved a quick KO and an easy night. He took some punishment last night and his face told the story.

It pains me to say it but I think Floyd is too crafty for Manny. Roach has really made Manny into skilled fighter who makes the most of his skills. Manny has good movement and superhuman stamina. He lacks Floyd's defense, foot and hand speed, but makes up for it with heart and toughness. Floyd walked through JMM without breaking a sweat. He will be hard to hit and make Manny pay when he misses. It would break my heart to see Floyd beat such a great champion.

I think you underestimate Kirkland. He took the fight to Perro, a tough dude, but I'd expect him to fight Martinez differently. Kirkland is a monster body puncher with excellent stamina. I would like to see him fight Cintron and one more challenger before stepping up but he has the power and skill (except for his lack of defense) to beat Martinez. Plus he is a southpaw who fights well inside. Hopefully these guys will meet sometime next year.

Cheers

J

jimdgoulding · « **Reply #32 on:** 13 Nov 2011, 07:40 pm »

It pains me to agree. Mayweather is a very skilled dude. The fight will happen, I do believe.

django11 · « **Reply #33 on:** 13 Nov 2011, 07:51 pm »

Quote from: jackman on 13 Nov 2011, 07:10 pm

I think you underestimate Kirkland.

What? Me underestimate someone?

rave959 · « **Reply #34 on:** 15 Nov 2011, 10:22 pm »

Hey guys,

Check this out:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S1cP4ce9LhM

You decide!

Cheers,
Ian

Quote from: jackman on 13 Nov 2011, 05:22 pm

You guys know nothing about Pacman. This fight was a carbon copy of the previous two fights. If they fought a fourth time, I suspect we would see the same thing. All of the fights between these guys were close. Lastly, Floyd is no dummy. He knows more about boxing than anyone on this thread and, IMO, any other fighter in the game. I can't stand the guy but he is a monster talent.

If the fight ever goes down between Pac Man and Pretty Boy, Manny had better bring his A game because Floyd will be the best fighter (by far) Manny has ever faced. I'll pay the $$$ to watch this one but if Floyd wins, I may never watch a boxing match again! ...until the rematch of course!

Cheers,

Jack

PS - did anyone catch the James Kirkland, Alfredo Angulo fight last Saturday? Now that Kirkland is back with his excellent trainer, Ann Wolf, he seems to have his head on straight and his boxing skills polished very nicely. He destroyed a very tough Angulo, after getting knocked down by a nasty right hand in the first round. Not many guys get off the deck after the beating he took during the first half of that first round but Kirkland looked very sharp. Angulo is a tough dude and he took a savage beating at the hands of Kirkland. Kirkland is back and ready to do some serious damage in the 154lb weight class. I'd love to see him step up in weight and face Sergio Martinez. That would be an exciting fight and I'd pick Kirkland (as long as he sticks with Ann Wolf's training!).

mjosef · « **Reply #35 on:** 15 Nov 2011, 10:57 pm »

I'll be catching the replay Saturday night.

Kirkland looked strong against the "Dawg", but Sergio is another level, he doesn't just stand there waiting to be clocked. I'd pick Sergio against Kirkland.

jackman · « **Reply #36 on:** 16 Nov 2011, 12:09 am »

Rave,
Totally intentional and very good fundamental boxing. When a right handed boxer faces a southpaw, stepping on his front foot is the oldest trick in the book. Manny does it too but Marquez does it better. It's the only way a slower handed and footed fighter can compete in exchanges in the middle of the ring.

Two smart fighters and two very tough guys. Two of my favorite fighters also. It's a shame someone had to lose that fight because both guys fought so valiantly. You could say the same for all three of their fights. I'm amazed at how muscular JMM was for the last fight. He looks like a different guy. Looks like he is on some of the same "supplements" that transformed Manny from a little skinny into a ripped boxing machine.

mjosef · « **Reply #37 on:** 22 Nov 2011, 03:16 am »

Man, that was a close fight, could have gone either way...I gave the edge to Pacman. Marquez style matched well with Pacquiao's...makes him look very ordinary.

Now we are hearing that Pacquiao was having some foot cramp problems from the 4th round onwards.
http://ca.sports.yahoo.com/box/news?slug=ro-rogers_manny_pacquiao_foot_cramps_111311

666 mark of the Beast.

JackD201 · « **Reply #38 on:** 22 Nov 2011, 03:28 am »

Pacquiao has never had to wear dress shoes in his life. Something mandatory now that he is a member of Congress. He's complained about this discomfort before.

You got the money Manny. Go buy some ECCOs or something. Forget the Pradas and Louis Vuittons. Better yet have Nike make you some dress shoes!

jimdgoulding · « **Reply #39 on:** 22 Nov 2011, 06:28 am »

Finally got to see the fight tonight. They were more conservative than the first two fights until the 5th. Punch for punch I could narrowly give it to Marquez, but, Manny had the ring presence thing down with his movement and coming forward the whole time. Marquez should have done more to offset that. He didn't do enough.

Stuff I said earlier was supposition but I weren't far wrong. Pacman is flashier and faster than ever and I do love his footwork. Marquez has that signature horizontal uppercut going on (which Pacman managed to avoid pretty much) and I do love his combinations. I think Marquez WAS getting some bad info from his trainer in the late rounds like Max K said. He might have found more resolve (and that's a big might- he is 38) if he thought he needed those round more decisively

. Honestly, I thought Pacman fought more aggressively overall and deserved the decision.