[azryan]

-20db on the 25 and 45 is 1 Watt. Sound and Vision measured this. -10 should be 10W and -0db should be the full rated 100W.

Pannie 'fudges' the numbers a little, but less than I thought they were after I saw S&V's measurments.

On the Alphas -25db is LOUD on most music. For movies I run about -15.

The 25 sounded grainier and more processed than the 45 but it was sublte. Mainly the top end was just not refined enough at all to be called hi-end at all.

I'll be updating on Bolder Cable's forum how the modded Pannie's breaking in, but so far it went from Day one being 'eh' but clearly very happy to replace the 25 for it.

About a week later now it's sounding really smooth and beautiful on the top end and overall it's really sounding very refined and even the bass is stronger and seems deeper which was where I had the least prob. with the stock 25 and 45.

I won't have that 'tube' sound I think I'd love the most, but I'm not sure I could get this level of detail and clairty from a chain of gear like this all digital path.

I dunno. It does EVERYTHING and all in one little black box plus full remote.
Hard to beat.

Don't expect the stock 25 to be near the quality esp. on the top end. And the 25 was fully broken in vs. this modded 45 with is suposedly hardly broken in at all yet.

I'll probably just post on Bolder Cable though anything more.

[Danny Richie]

Looks like the X25 has more than enough power to drive any of our A/V series speakers and have head room to spare.

[IronForge]

Now in the case of the alpha's they are using it as a 2 channel amplifier?

It should be ok with all 6 channels in use?  (AV series)

[azryan]

"-Now in the case of the alpha's they are using it as a 2 channel amplifier?-"

That's how I'm using it. It's got a cool thing called 'party mode' that sends the same stereo signal to the rear surround L/R which can use to bi-amp Alphas.

I don't feel I need it and it actually makes the gain about 6db lower which means less overall volume 'cuz you'll only gain ~3db worth of power by bi-amping.

Other are finding it too be better on their speakers though which suck up a lot more power.

"-It should be ok with all 6 channels in use? (AV series)-"

If you mean power-wise... yeah. If you mean sound-wise... it does a lot of things really well and it depends on how picky you are.

The top end of the 25 is totally mid-fi at best for being processy and grainy and a bit harsh on the terribly revealing Alphas.

I don't know the A/V's silk tweeter. Like if it's a little warmed/softer more forgiving?

The treble and midrange of the 25 is really detailed. Fairly impressive 'for it's price'. Anything called 'hi end' should be this detailed though- and usually is.

The bass it it's most impressive trait and should pull out the most bass on those A/V's. Fast, tight and strong. Seems to be inherent in being a 'digital' amp meaning the one thing that all digital amps seem to have in common somewhat.

The 45 is less grainy and even more refined but in a subtle way.

This modded 45 is really shining now. It's doing an outstanding job on the top end. No grain or harshness at all letting all the faintest detail show through and more commanding on the bass too.

We'll have to see if Wayne can do this to the XR70.
He didn't seem that impressed with the XR50 but you might PM him and ask if he's going to mod it or what.

[thuway]

Hey Azryan,

I've been reading your posts for a while, and well I guess, I'll start off my little story.

I am about to make my FIRST speaker purchase, being a kid in college and an audiophile at the same time, don't really mix, but hey, I opted and I became, SO, I was looking at plenty of speakers.


AFter about a good year of learning audio/listening, I found out about the companies on the internet, right now two companies fall into my head, AV123 and GR.

I decided, that if I want to make a two channel purchase, I want to make it my LAST two channel purchase, so I decided on the GR- Alpha kit.

Now I still have some money saving to do, but I had a few questions for you if you don't mind answering.

The panasonic pre/pro amp you have, when you say it sounds world class, what do you mean by that, and what amp could you put it it up against.  I have listened to some greats including Leixcon, Sunfire, and even a Krell Reference (even though I thought it wasn't for my taste).  I prefer a midnight warm sound but solid bass and revealing highs, which everyone really wants, but go ahead and comment please.

The Pre section on the Panny can you tell me how that stands against most Pre's?  The Video section is just about the only section I'm not very educated in, I know if i build a speaker set, I would want an HT system as well, so could you comment on that.

BTW, you were building a center channel, I dont know if its legal or not, but can you quote the price on it, and can you comment on how it sounds in conjunction with the Alphas?

And Azryan can you comment on the CD player/DAC your using, I really don't know much about them, in the 2 years I've spent learning about audio, just that a CD player plays CDs, and being told that not to spend too ridiculous amounts of money on the CD player and the Cables....

ALSO, Danny, I was wondering if you had any plans for surrounds, or maybe a Kit Package that I could work on, maybe I ought to email you about my future speaker idea plans? Anyways, thanks for reading this, if you guys do, I really am hoping the first speaker purchase will be my last speaker purchase.

[azryan]

"-I decided, that if I want to make a two channel purchase, I want to make it my LAST two channel purchase, so I decided on the GR- Alpha kit.-"

LAST speaker purchase'. Well, you'd be the first to stick to that. hehe

Seriously, having heard a LOT of the most costly, most famous speakers in the world I have no urge to change my Alphas for anything. This is the first speaker that makes me feel that way. There was always 'something' about past speakers I've had or other designs I've heard.

That's just me though.

"-The panasonic pre/pro amp you have, when you say it sounds world class, what do you mean by that, and what amp could you put it it up against.-"

World Class' I would consider to be something that could go up against about anything on the market and not be killed or shamed by anything.
You can argue forever about what the 'BEST' this or that is, but I'm talking 'real world' it's in the top range of gear in many attributes IMO.

You'll have to look more into this Rec. You seem to bea little mixed up about what it is.
It's an all digital path. There's not really a preamp section or DACs or amps in the classical sense so you can directly compare it to this or that amp, DAC, or preamp 'cuz you can't split apart the all-in-one digital path that this thing does.

I've compared it to my former eARTwo amp but of course that was based on the signal I sent to that amp -which depending on your taste in gear could drastically change what comes out that (or any amp).

This is why it's so tough to talk about this Rec. vs. other analog connected sepperates.

"-I have listened to some greats including Leixcon, Sunfire, and even a Krell Reference (even though I thought it wasn't for my taste).-"

A lot of people would probably consider those three to be fairly diff. on their own. I believe Lexicon amps are just rebadged Bryston amps? No?

"-I prefer a midnight warm sound but solid bass and revealing highs, which everyone really wants, but go ahead and comment please.-"

Yes, it sounds like you want everything -like we all do.
This Pannie does everything 'cpet sound warm. It's a bright, clean, smooth sound, but if a recording is a little harsh it'll just let that through unlike some 'warm' gear that might keep that sort of thing from sounding harsh -which some might prefer 'cuz who wants to hear harsh music right?

But to do that then something that's recorded nice and warm probably won't quite have as much clarity/detail.
This thing's totally honest IMO. Some people want to be lied to just a little in thier music.

"-The Pre section on the Panny can you tell me how that stands against most Pre's?-"

You can take in an analog input which gets converted to digital to be run through the powerDAC chips. It's not the path to get the most out of this thing.

'-I know if i build a speaker set, I would want an HT system as well, so could you comment on that.-"'

My Alphas are in my HT room. They're set up optimally for stereo and work great with a phantom center for my wife and I on all the movies we watch. The little Pannie Rec. has plenty of power for anything too 'cuz of the effi. of the Alphas.

"-BTW, you were building a center channel, I dont know if its legal or not, but can you quote the price on it, and can you comment on how it sounds in conjunction with the Alphas?-"

It's being shipped back to me, then I'll have to solder the x-over, install it and let it break in before I can say what it does. I seems to be a bit more of an experiment than I hoped but we'll see.

"-And Azryan can you comment on the CD player/DAC-"

The DAC is part of the Pannie's all digital path. You only need a digital cable to he Pannie and you're done. I'm using a cheap Pio. universal DVD player for the transport. I might experiment with diff. digital cables and transports in the future but the only effect possible should be a lowering of jitter and I have no idea what the level of jitter is from my DVD player and digital cables. It's a more sublte thing though than the actual Rec. and speakers so I'm not too concerned.

If you don't have much exp. in assorted gear and speakers you'll just be floored by the Alphas and spoiled right of the bat. Nothing will impress you much in local hi-fi shops, etc... even in the 5 figure range 'statement' speakers out there.

You'll say 'How can they charge THIS much???' hehe

[wshuff]

I believe Lexicon amps are just rebadged Bryston amps? No?

No.  And yes.  The previous generation of Lexicon amps were, I believe, rebadged Brystons, although I don't know which specific models the Lex amps corresponded to.  The new Lex amps, the LX7, LX5, and I believe CX7 and CX5, are not Bryston amps.  I think that they are Lexicon designed and built by Crown.

But don't quote me on any of that.

[thuway]

Oh boy, Alpha Owners do I have some story to tell you .

SO I'm at the store today, the local high end audio store here.  I walked into the store, looking around casually, and listening of course.  So I begin talking to the guy about Gr-Alphas, and he asks me to take him to the webpage.  So I do.

He reads the article about the Alphas on the GR page, and tells me they can no way compete with the Martin Logan Prodigies.  HE also tells me, that they are not as easy to drive as I think, because I'll be powering 18 6 inch woofers, and that the Panny is probably an AWFUL choice for an AMP.

Not only that, but he continually bashes the GR Alphas by saying that they can't go louder as you go further away, because that defies the laws of physics, he basically alludes to me that the company sounds like a hoax, and that I won't acheieve near the excellence of the Martin Logan Prodigies.

He says he is very skeptical about the 1 watt/meter 93 db statement, because Danny you wrote on your webpage that this may be "misleading", and he asked what was misleading about it.

 Danny or Azryan can you comment on this, and Azryan can you comment on the two chanenl performace of the Alphas compared to higher end speakers, cause I left feeling a bit dismayed and skeptical, mainly this being my first audio purchase, and him making me feel like the Panny reciever (which he HASNT heart BTW) was some sort of hoax with the mod, becuase he claims that no 300 dollar reciever could compete with high quality amp products.


My purchase plan was so far:

A Pair of Gr-Alphas
And the Panny to drive them
as for the CD Player, you guys could help me on that.

Thanks guys....

[Danny Richie]

ALSO, Danny, I was wondering if you had any plans for surrounds, or maybe a Kit Package that I could work on, maybe I ought to email you about my future speaker idea plans?

Yea, A/V series surrounds are in the works. There is another thread here with recent pics of enclosures that are on the way for testing.

Feel free to e-mail me about any of your plans, or just shoot me over a phone number in that e-mail and I'll call you up at the end of my work day and let you talk my ear off about it if you like.

[Danny Richie]

Thuway, that is a funny story.  

Where was this store?  

HE also tells me, that they are not as easy to drive as I think

Oh boy,   I have driven them with an 8 watt tube amp.

He says he is very skeptical about the 1 watt/meter 93 db statement, because Danny you wrote on your webpage that this may be "misleading", and he asked what was misleading about it.

Well that's okay, he just doesn't know anything about line sources.

What is misleading is that the one watt/one meter rating will not reflect the true output level very well if comparing it to a point source type speaker.

This is because a line source looses 3db of output when distance away from it is doubled while a point source looses 6db of output when doubling distance away from it.

If comparing it to a point source that is rated at 93db at 1 watt/one meter they will have equal output at one meter.

If you measure the same two speakers at two meters the Alpha will measure at 90db output while the point source will have fallen off to 87db.

If measuring them at 4 meters the Alpha output will drop to 87db while the point source will now output 81db.

So for a point source to have equal output at 4 meters it takes a point source that will output 99db at one watt/one meter.

Maybe you can explain it to him the next time you see him now.

[thuway]

Danny I've sent you an email, drop me a line soon!

[JoshK]

That is pretty funny!  Thanks for that, I had a good laugh.  Either that sales person doesn't know jack sh*t about audio (likely) or just trying to make a sale at any cost (likely too).  

I remember my infatuation with Martin Logans when I first saw them, at the beginning of my audio journey.  That lasted till I heard them!  Did you get to hear them?  Pretty good midrange, I'll give them that, seduction at least, but positively awful treble and bass that completely doesn't mess with the panel.  [I am not sure if I heard the Prodigies, I heard a couple of mid level MLs]

I don't own the Alphas, haven't even heard them, but the Martin Logans don't set the mark very high to beat, IMHO.  

Lastly, I'll just mention, that Martin Logan are really complex and difficult loads to drive.  IIRC, they have rising impedance with rising frequency.  Basically they make good amps sound bad most of the time.  

Although I haven't heard the Alphas, I do know enough about line array to confidently say these will be a much much easier load to drive.  Like Danny said, he drove them with an 8 watt tube amp.  Something you couldn't even think about with the Martin Logans.

[pjchappy]

What a butthead. . .

I've never been to a 'hi-end' store. . .and I would be happy if I NEVER end up in one.

W/ all the online research I've done, I am very happy w/ my modest system.  I will be VERY happy w/ the system I will be getting in the not so distant future.  The direct-to-market retailers, such as GR-Research, VMPS, BolderCables, etc. etc., put out products that best most 'hi-end' retail stuff and are MUCH cheaper. . .

p

[wshuff]

Wonder if that salesguy knows what drivers are being used in the new ML speakers, the Mosaic?

[thuway]

ALSO in an effort to make my LAST CD purchase, I have opted to purchase this:

http://cls.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls.pl?dgtlplay&1089776238

From what I've read it gives the best CD players a run for their money.

either I am going to purchase that or I am thinking the Rotel CD 991, I don't have too much money to spend on this system, but I don't want to cheapen out, unfortunately something has to be...

anyways if anyone can reccomend me a great CD player, that would be great.

So far my system is coming out to be Gr- Alpha pair, and a panasonic reciever...... and now the cd player is under business for decision.

[azryan]

Man if REALLY sucks that Danny had to explain that 'misleading' comment about how this line source ends up being a LOT louder than a point source of the same 1 meter SPL 'cuz he freakin' explained it on his web site right there.

That salestwit sounds so sickeningly typical of the crap you hear at any of those places. They know a little and it's enough to snow people who know less and think they're 'listening to the experts'.

One thing right off the bat though. The Pannie XR45 is NOT kick ass in stock form. Don't fool yourself that it's really amazing. It is in certain ways and certainly for the price, but NOT amazing without getting it modded. IF you can even find one.

The XR25 is worse sounding, and the new XR50 and soon to come out XR70 have a diff. design in certain elements so who knows if they'll be as good or what.

It's true that speakers make a BIG diff. on the sound, but you can NOT hook up 'so-so.decent/nothing special' front end and expect ANY speakers to make that signal sound any better than 'ok, not that impressive'.


As for the Prodigies. I've heard all the Martin Logans of the past several years and specifically the Prodigies at least 7 diff. times in assorted rooms with diff. gear.

Each time except one I was totally unimpressed. Their curved panel is a half-assed way to keep what would normally be a flat panel from beaming through the upper mids end entire treble range.

The curve works ok to help this out but their dipole output and the curve will not give you sharp imaging without being REALLY far from the walls and very treated room.

The woofer is very tricky to blend into the panel.

Their dynamics are a total joke compared to the Alphas.

You have to plug them in and vacuum them.

Far lower power handling. Far lower effi (those combine to equal far lower dynamic ability).
No dynamic impact in the midrange due to the inherent no air-pushing of the 'stat panel.

I felt my Newform Research 645's easily bettered the M-L's in almost every way and the Alphas are easily better than the 645's in every way.

The Alphas easily beat those $10K Prodigies and for WAY less $.

"-HE also tells me, that they are not as easy to drive as I think, because I'll be powering 18 6 inch woofers,-"

That's just totally dumb. It's just a simple fact that they're far more effi.

People like that think something bigger must be harder to move but it's actually almost always the reverse with speakers.

"-he basically alludes to me that the company sounds like a hoax,-"

Well, you know it's no hoax 'cuz of the people here who built GR speakers, heard them at shows, or are building kits right now.

[azryan]

Oh yeah... and as 'wshuff' mentioned...

M-Logan's new line of speakers use the same Neo 8 in the Alphas.
Logan renamed them their 'ATF' drivers and implies they invented them (which they didn't) and then salesfools actually think they did invent them and tell people that.
I've told more than one salesputz 'Uh... no they didn't.... LIAR!!!'  hehe

Their 'Mosaic' uses one Neo 8 turned horizontally so it'll project more vertically to mimic the height of their 'stat panel models. It also uses a Neo 3 PDR (the PDR version means they wad up the two end holes of the planar) 'cuz the Neo 8 would beam on the entire high freq. being horizontal.

These are both mounted in a really nice Plastic frame (please note sarcasm) and below is a thin, lightweight though nice enough veneered rounded woofer cabinet with a woofer which struck me as high quality as the cheap plastic/thin cabinet.

Don't know if they use top quality x-over parts like GR does, but I assume the safe answer is 'Not a chance in hell.'

And the price is the same as the Alpha kit.

I bet it's just cheaper for M-L to buy these drivers in bulk than it is to make their smaller entry level 'stat panel speakers so it's a matter of 'bottom line' for them IMO.

A lot of people think these speakers are really great too. I've heard them twice in two diff. set ups and the first was bad because of the set up put them too far apart and not toed in at all (they really need to be).
There was no bottom end at all, but otherwise it sounded pretty detailed and tonally pretty natural.

I was hardly impressed though.

Next I heard them in a higher end shop in a proper set-up though very close nearfield spacing and still no bass -but it was nicer than last time.

I liked 'em enough, but not at ALL for the crazy price.

Oddly though. On the other side of the same room were the Sonus Faber Cremonas. I forget the price -maybe $7k? And nice full Krell front end.

The Cremonas killed the Mosaics in bass (no shock) and looks/build quality (another 'duh') but clarity/detail I liked the Mosaics better.

The Cremonas use the World Class Scan Speak Revelator woofers and famous performance/value Vifa ring-radiator tweeter.

The detail just wasn't there. If it's not 'cuz of the inherent speed and clarity of the Neo planars then the only other thing I'd think it could be is that Sonus Faber REALLY voices their x-overs extra warm/soft/dull.

It wasn't the room, and I highly doubt it coulda been the Krell gear (which has never been called 'warm' that I've heard).

So blah blah blah... just a little more insight into Martin Logan. And more stuff you can shove in that salesdork's face to explain why exactly he's a twit.

[thuway]

Ryan/Danny, what do you guys think of the CD-p choice I put right there?

[Danny Richie]

Hey man, that is a heck of a deal on that Audio Alchemy DDS Pro Transport + top-of-the line components.

You did good there.

[zybar]

The AA was good for its time, how do you think it compares to the current digital gear?

Digital is one area in which there have been many, many improvements since the AA gear was new.

I would tend to think that for the amount of money the person is asking that you could do better.

My 2 cents...

George