Modded Panny and the Alpha LS

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wshuff

Modded Panny and the Alpha LS
« Reply #20 on: 26 Apr 2004, 11:14 pm »
I too am enjoying this discussion, and since there isn't much else going on in this forum right now, it's not like it's disrupting anything, but I agree...there are probably lots of potentially interested people who are missing out on this.  Probably wouldn't be a bad idea if some of the HD discussion could be put where more people could see it.  But wherever it gets posted, keep this discussion going.  Might be a nice way to kill the time until Wayne sends Azryan his modded Pannie.  Then he can tell us all about that (which is something else I'm looking forward to seeing and reading).

Danny Richie

Off topic discussions
« Reply #21 on: 27 Apr 2004, 12:42 am »
You guys are welcome to continue this interesting discussion here, and if you think members in other forums would be interested in the discussion you can always post a link to it and have them join in here so that the thread does not get split.

azryan

Modded Panny and the Alpha LS
« Reply #22 on: 27 Apr 2004, 05:14 pm »
Jon,

I think you're totally right about this not having anything to do with Danny's speakers here. When I first posted I said the original topic should maybe be asked on Wayne's forum and the poster didn't reply so I thought 'drifting' was acceptable.

I don't want to take away from Danny's speakers though, but I didn't think this thread is really pushing any other ones away, but if Danny suggested it be moved I'd totally have no prob. with it.

And if anything it puts a GR forum thread on the main page right?

If you guys building Alphas want to post more pics I'll make sure not to drop the threads down. In fact... I think I said as much as I can about the hi def. disc topic anyway so think this one's about 'dead'.

scooter

  • Jr. Member
  • Posts: 43
Modded Panny and the Alpha LS
« Reply #23 on: 29 Apr 2004, 11:31 am »
I shall make this the last post since others have pointed out this is off topic:

"I disagree that current DVD audio in the form of lossy DD and DTS is as you say -'mediocre'. "

I went and listened to a DTS disk of the Titanic soundtrack. It was an excellent mix and recording and very close to as good as it gets. I then put in the titanic the movie and I was still of the feeling that it was mediocre in comparison to the hi-rez DTS version. So I still think there are far too many compromises being made when mixing due to bandwidth and space issues, plus DD which most disks come out in is clearly inferior to what DTS is capable of.

"And while I wouldn't argue that a more advanced lossless compression would be cool, 99.9999% of people out the would get zero benefit from it, and to add that cost to players doesn't seem that reasonable to me. "

I know I am  a minority, I just did not realize how much of one. I have to agree with the comment though. There is also no additional cost for the player as it would just be DVD-A which is already part of the DVD standard which they will have to support for backwards compatiability anyway.

"Have you ever heard any DTS music discs? It can sound awesome IMO.
'Lossy' doesn't just mean they're throwing stuff out.
They also rename data to make is much smaller, and remove data that is audible masked anyway. "

I have many DTS disks and yes they are very good. Just the thought of having lossless though was a nice dream while it lasted. Given that lossless is not possible due to space limitations I would certainly want DTS to be the codec used. However I am also a realist and it is more likely that DD will be chosen for backwards compatiability with standard DVD, leaving us in the same position we are in today.

"I'm saying that movie theaters get the same DD and DTS soundtracks we get on current DVD's "
This is smply not true. We get a version of what goes in the theater but not the same quality. It really depends on how much bandwidth and disk space is actually available on the DVD as to how high a sound quality is possible on a DVD. This is normally dictated by the Video portion which consumes the bulk of the disk space and bandwidth. When they author the disk they have to make compromises because there is a limited bandwidth for data coming off the disk and also limited space resources, in many cases they are forced to water down the quality of the sound so it consumes less space and less bandwidth. When authoring and push comes to shove it is normally always the audio that will suffer.

The superiority of our systems even makes mediocre recordings sound better than in a theater which is laden with compromises from a sound aspect due to the number of people it has to seat and where they are seated, room treatment etc etc. I know my system is superior to any theater I have been in and as you say yours is too.


I won't go into the Video side again, there are many threads on AVS where there are comparisons with the tech details therein.

Here endeth the thread.

jonwb

Modded Panny and the Alpha LS
« Reply #24 on: 29 Apr 2004, 12:16 pm »
Hey guys... I don't want to be a thread killer.  :guns:

Please continue if you wish (like you need my permission :)     )  And azryan I wouldn't worry about bumping other threads around, I'm sure people can handle finding whatever thread they are interested in.

Its just clear that you guys have given a great deal of thought and research into this topic and I thought perhaps it should involve a larger audience... or you could keep it in our little geeky club.

BTW, I completely agree w/ this comment by Scooter, "The superiority of our systems even makes mediocre recordings sound better than in a theater..."  As a general rule I prefer the sound of my little home theater setup to what I hear in theaters.   Even the theaters that you can tell have nice equip. don't ever seem to get it quite right (too loud, too quiet, too bright, too much bass, etc).  Maybe I'm just more used to the way it sounds at home.

azryan

Modded Panny and the Alpha LS
« Reply #25 on: 29 Apr 2004, 05:24 pm »
BTW, I completely agree w/ this comment by Scooter, "The superiority of our systems even makes mediocre recordings sound better than in a theater..."

Hey man, I said that too... and first! hehe

Well if nobody minds, and it sure seems like next gen. HD discs is actually the topic of this thread now...

scooter,

"-I went and listened to a DTS disk of the Titanic soundtrack. It was an excellent mix and recording and very close to as good as it gets. I then put in the titanic the movie and I was still of the feeling that it was mediocre in comparison to the hi-rez DTS version.-"

But you're not comparing the same thing. The music soundtrack on an audio disc and hearing some music mixed into the movie soundtrack is not a fair comparison.

I have no doubt the audio version is better just like you said, but that's not proof it's due only to the codec or even at all.

"-So I still think there are far too many compromises being made when mixing due to bandwidth and space issues,-"

We'd need the same exact audio recorded both ways and directly A/B 'em to see what if any major diff. exists.

"-plus DD which most disks come out in is clearly inferior to what DTS is capable of.-"

DTS is almost always mixed diff. and while a higher bit rate it's a less effi. codec so it's not a direct comp.
I think I had the DVD 'Family Man' (that sappy N. Cage flick) and it was mostly all dialouge and DD and DTS soundtrack. I A/B'ed it back and forth and couldn't tell any diff.

"-There is also no additional cost for the player as it would just be DVD-A which is already part of the DVD standard which they will have to support for backwards compatiability anyway.-"

Hmm... I don't think that's right. DVD-V and DVD-A are two sepp. formats and HD-DVD will be a third. If DVD-A's MLP is not part of the HD-DVD 'must include' then no play will have to be made to have the DVD-A decoding chips inside 'em.
Now, maybe they all will as they might just be so cheap or integrated into other chips that it won't add any cost. I don't know but that wouldn't suprise me I guess.

"-I have many DTS disks and yes they are very good. Just the thought of having lossless though was a nice dream while it lasted.-"

I might happen. DTS is not a 'must have' but a lot of DVD's have it. If both Blu-Ray and HD-DVD use blue lasers and there's room after the video to have a lossless audio format.... maybe they will add MLP soundtrack?
Wouldn't suprise me either. Esp. if mostl players just happen to come with MLP chips in 'em. We'll see.

The space should be there on either disc.

I said -I'm saying that movie theaters get the same DD and DTS soundtracks we get on current DVD's "

You said -"-This is smply not true. We get a version of what goes in the theater but not the same quality. It really depends on how much bandwidth and disk space is actually available on the DVD as to how high a sound quality is possible on a DVD.-"

Where do you get this from?

I was reading about a pretty informed guy with HD-VHS player and he was saying the bit rates on those tapes are higher than the movie theaters get.
I've also read that often a studio for the sake of it being so cheap and easy will just dump the film's soundtrack onto a DVD and so it's the exact same.

jonwb

Modded Panny and the Alpha LS
« Reply #26 on: 29 Apr 2004, 06:13 pm »
Quote from: azryan

Hey man, I said that too... and first! hehe



My apologies, you are the man...  :wink:

Seeing as you have go the tread up and running again, I'll continue to loosely follow it and feel better about myself not being as big a geek as I thought I was.

wshuff

Modded Panny and the Alpha LS
« Reply #27 on: 29 Apr 2004, 06:44 pm »
I'm sorry, but I think that the mere fact that you are a member of an online audio forum is in and of itself evidence of being a geek.  Welcome to the club!

Azryan, I think I've read that space considerations do impact the video and audio quality on DVD.  Only so many bits available.  That's why the DTS releases of movies like Saving Private Ryan didn't get the extras found on the DD release--not enough room with the larger DTS soundtrack.  And while I can't remember the exact details of what I read, or what the context was, I remember reading something (possibly on one of the forums) about the tradeoffs between better picture and better sound.  Increase the bit rate for a better video performance and you lose bits for audio.  And I've read quite a few discussions about the trade-offs with DTS-ES discrete.  It adds the discrete rear channel, but it still only has the same bit rate, so what used to be divided among 5 channels is now divided by 6.  In other words, fewer bits per channel.  

More space on the DVD would have to be a good thing, but I can't understand a decision to go with MPEG 2 is better compression schemes are available.  

As for DD on film, my understanding is that the soundtrack is stored optically between the sprocket holes.  Doesn't seem like there is much space there.  Do the movie theater releases get a higher bit rate DD?  Does anybody know the highest bitrate available for DD?

azryan

Modded Panny and the Alpha LS
« Reply #28 on: 29 Apr 2004, 08:22 pm »
"-Azryan, I think I've read that space considerations do impact the video and audio quality on DVD. Only so many bits available.-"

Ah yes. I can totally see that, but your examples don't ness. relate to what I wasn't sure about DVD DD/DTS vs. what the movie theaters get.

You talk about no room for extras. Well yeah, but that's video. Takes up a LOT of room on a DVD.

Then you said 6.1 DTS runs the same bit rate as 5.1 DTS. True... but is that because there's no more room on the disc. Of course not.
That same disc also has a DD 5.1 and probably 2 chan track and probably Spanish and French and assorted subtitles filling up space.

Then... is the disc 100% filled up? Nope. There's gotta be some space left.

My question is... I thought movie theaters have the same soundtrack as DVD.
scooter says no, and I'd like to know more about that.

If anything... movie theaters DO only have lossy soundtracks so even if they're a higher bit rate there should be no prob. having them on new HD discs.

It's the idea of having lossless soundtracks while movie theaters don't that seems like it'd be too much to ask esp. when the masses wouldn't hear any diff. at all.

wshuff

Modded Panny and the Alpha LS
« Reply #29 on: 29 Apr 2004, 09:02 pm »
I'll have to find what I read (and remember where I read it) but with respect to DTS-ES discrete, I don't think it is as much a matter of space on the DVD as the maximum rate for DTS itself.  I'm not sure that I articulated that very well, and I don't remember the rates that were quoted.  But I think it was a matter of the maximum data rate for DTS.

As for whether we get the same soundtrack that the theaters get, I have no idea what we get.  One thing that I wonder about is theatrical DTS.  Isn't it on a separate disc?  Don't know if it is a CD or DVD, but I assume it at least started as a CD.  I also think it took multiple discs for a theatrical film.  It makes me wonder what the data rate is -- seems to me that it could be far higher for the theater than the home since they don't have to have to worry about video content or anything else.  The entire space is devoted to audio data.  So I wonder how much compression is actually needed for the theater.

I'd assume that theatrical DD is more limited since it is stored optically on the film itself.

azryan

Modded Panny and the Alpha LS
« Reply #30 on: 29 Apr 2004, 11:54 pm »
"-I don't think it is as much a matter of space on the DVD as the maximum rate for DTS itself.-"

Makes sense. I don't see a reason why they couldn't bump that rate up for HD formats. I tried to look up what DD+ and DTS++ mean on those companies web sites and failed on both tries.

"-As for whether we get the same soundtrack that the theaters get, I have no idea what we get.-"

Yep. Me neither. Maybe scooter can post a link?

"-One thing that I wonder about is theatrical DTS. Isn't it on a separate disc?-"

As far as I know... I thought that's true. No idea is multiple discs or what the data rate of it is or anything though.

"-It makes me wonder what the data rate is -- seems to me that it could be far higher for the theater than the home since they don't have to have to worry about video content or anything else.-"

Could be, but I'd like to know for sure that it is.

It's a higher data rate for those D-VHS tapes according to a guy who owns a lot of them and seems to know very much what he's talking about on AVSforum.

NO idea either how that works out to data rate that DD is written on the film.

Sounds like we both want the exact same answers though.

scooter

  • Jr. Member
  • Posts: 43
Modded Panny and the Alpha LS
« Reply #31 on: 30 Apr 2004, 03:53 am »
" My question is... I thought movie theaters have the same soundtrack as DVD.  scooter says no, and I'd like to know more about that. "

Pressed for time at the moment so it will take a day or two to get the info for you, below should give you a better understanding of the issue though.

My understanding of the authoring process is that the engineer actually sets the video and audio bit rates and then the system will take the original audio and video and then compress it as required in order to meet the bitrate requirements. This in itself is the primary problem.

This would explain why you could not tell the difference between a dialog only DTS and DD track, it would not have had to compress it as there would have been little activity as it is dialog only. The problems become more evident when you have a complex audio track like the Titanic which has a full orchestral score. The DTS score of Titanic is a valid comparison because it would have been taken from the same original source as the films audio was produced from, the only difference being the special effects and dialog were layered in as well. So listening to the Hi-Res DTS score then comparing it to the film you get an idea of what you are missing.

In regard to HD-DVD and support for MLP. I believe it would be commercial suicide for a company to release a HD-DVD player and not make it backwards compatiable i.e. be capable of playing regular DVD's as well. In order to play regular DVD's they will have to support MLP as it is one of the mandatory requirements of the standard, hence no additional costs will be required to support lossless audio. I also saw some comments on AVS regardling DTS putting forward a lossless codec for the HD standard, that is interesting as well.

Will get back to you with some facts and figures in a day or two.

azryan

Modded Panny and the Alpha LS
« Reply #32 on: 30 Apr 2004, 06:39 pm »
"-The DTS score of Titanic is a valid comparison because it would have been taken from the same original source as the films audio was produced from, the only difference being the special effects and dialog were layered in as well.-"

That diff. is a BIG diff. IMO. Also the levels of just the orchestral score are going to be diff. between the two.

If anything maybe the end credits where there is only music might be a valid comp. but... we don't know that the DVD was encoded as well as it could be or how they did it exactly.

I just think it's not at all a fair shootout.

"-In order to play regular DVD's they will have to support MLP as it is one of the mandatory requirements of the standard, hence no additional costs will be required to support lossless audio.-"

What? If MLP was manditory, then why are there DVD players that don't play DVD-A -which is the only use of MLP?

Maybe I misunderstand what you're saying?

scooter

  • Jr. Member
  • Posts: 43
Modded Panny and the Alpha LS
« Reply #33 on: 3 May 2004, 10:39 am »
Azryan " My question is... I thought movie theaters have the same soundtrack as DVD."

Try as I might I could not find absolute references to the bit rates used for DTS or DD in movies, or at least not a definitive source anyway. In the case of DD I found a news article that discussed DD on movies and it said the bit rate for theaters was limited to 320kps due to the way they digitally encoded between the sprockets of the film. I could find nothing for DTS at all.

Now I know that most DVD's that have DD tracks use higher bit rates (Somone with a bitrate display on their player could confirm on a few titles, my player doesn't have a bitrate display, but many AVS members confirmed this). This can only mean one thing. The tracks that we have on our DVD's are actually better quality than in movie theaters due to the increased bit rate meaning less compression. I believe that the same is true for DTS, most DTS titles have a bit rate of 700kbps. Although DTS is a little more nebulous. In the case of DTS there is a separate player for the audio in cinemas but the data comes on CD ROM, one of ther players had three drives so they have a limit of around 1.5 gig for sound if all three drives are used. Their current systems are only sampling at 48khz but their latest player for cinemas which can store the audio for up to 30 movies at a time on its hard drive and supports 24/96khz and this will start appearing in theaters soon. So the ante is being upped in cinemas via DTS and DD will follow no doubt.

What I am sure of is that the DVD sound tracks are remixed and done separately to the DD/DTS movie sound tracks. This makes sense to me as well, as depending on the amount of space available on the DVD and the bit rate used they would need to take it from the masters and then compress from there.

All the above does is raise more questions than it answers but based on the number of AVS threads I read suffice it to say that I believe that the bulk of teh DD and DTS tracks we recieve on DVD are superior to their movie counterparts. When DTS 24/96 appears this will change and we will have an inferior DTS mix than will be available in some theaters.

The best link I found on the AVS forum to do with this is below, the discussion takes a while before some knowledgable people step in so go past the first page:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=268437&highlight=bitrate

Azryan " What? If MLP was manditory, then why are there DVD players that don't play DVD-A -which is the only use of MLP? "

MLP is part of the current DVD standard ala DVD-A. All I was saying is that in order to be backwards compatiable with the original DVD spec they would have to have a decoder for it anyway. The only problem is that the player itself only has the decoder and not the surround processor which means sound would have to come out of the discrete outputs on the player.

Well after doing a lot of searching I feel as if I know less than when I started. Very frustrating. If I get some spare time in the next month I will download a DD encoder and encode some hi-rez sound just so that I can listen to it for myself and make a more qualified statement as to how good or bad DD is on various bit rates. I think that would be the only fair way to compare.

IronForge

  • Jr. Member
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Modded Panny and the Alpha LS
« Reply #34 on: 14 May 2004, 05:17 pm »
How did that modded panny end up sounding on the alphas?  Or are you still waiting for it?

wshuff


IronForge

  • Jr. Member
  • Posts: 110
Modded Panny and the Alpha LS
« Reply #36 on: 14 May 2004, 06:07 pm »
Thanks for the link..

I recently bought an X25 from sears.. clearance sale for $135 out the door..  sounds good but I don't have the best speakers hooked up to it right now.. so can't get the full impression..

Do you think an X25 will be sufficient to power some of the A/V line of speakers? (IE AV/3 and AV/1 surrounds)?

If not.. I may buy an X70 when they come out..

Danny Richie

Power
« Reply #37 on: 14 May 2004, 07:03 pm »
How much power is the X25 rated to output to each channel?

IronForge

  • Jr. Member
  • Posts: 110
Modded Panny and the Alpha LS
« Reply #38 on: 14 May 2004, 07:46 pm »
I believe 6 x 100w @ 6ohm, for the X-25.  It is the same power rating as a stock XR45 just less bells & whistles.

pjchappy

Modded Panny and the Alpha LS
« Reply #39 on: 14 May 2004, 07:59 pm »
According to Wayne, the 25's PS is much less substantial than the 45's. . .and some other internal differences. . .

p