Cheaper alternative to Well Tempered Reference?

Gopher · « **on:** 11 Aug 2011, 04:49 pm »

I've had a Well Tempered Reference turntable for over a year now and its a very good, albeit laid back deck. Something has come up and I need to free up some cash, but don't want to be without analog all together, so I'm wondering if there is a cheaper, but still highly enjoyable table and arm (modern or vintage) which you guys suggest in the sub $1k range.

I have a Denon 103-D, a Zu 103 prime, a Jasmine LP2.0SE and Bob's Devices SUT and Target wall mount. I also have a pair of Wywires phono cables (RCA) which I'd like to continue using, but suppose could be re-terminated to DIN.

Do you guys have any great bang for the buck suggestions here? I'm not great with setup, but have local help including a buddy with a Fozgometer.

Again, I'm happy to spend less as long as it delivers on musicality and does well with the stuff I already own.

twitch54 · « **Reply #1 on:** 11 Aug 2011, 05:36 pm »

what do you suppose your well tempered is worth ? by selling it and then spending 500 - 1000 dollars on another rig is that really cost effective ? wouldn't a short term low interest loan (ie home equity) be another possibility ?

Gopher · « **Reply #2 on:** 11 Aug 2011, 05:41 pm »

Well Tempered is worth between $2500 and $3000 though its not as liquid as it used to be with the new Well Tempered line out.

I'd be happy to pull $1500 out of the analog front end, still have the ability to spin (and sound VG). Part of the personal reason is to get together funds for the down payment on another property.

Also, I don't listen to enough vinyl to justify the ~$5k I have tied up in that front end and would like to scale back a bit.

neobop · « **Reply #3 on:** 11 Aug 2011, 07:18 pm »

I saw this on Audiogon. Put a Jelco on there and it should be pretty good with your Denons.
http://www.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls.pl?anlgtabl&1315699608&/Technics-SP15
neo

AudioSoul · « **Reply #4 on:** 12 Aug 2011, 04:33 am »

There is a Technics SP-15 on Ebay right now $399.00 for buy it now. I would get it myself but I already have four TT's.
It has a Audiotechnica tonearm with some MM cart. I own a SP-15 and they are great TT's that should give you sound simular to your Well Tempered..........

doug s. · « **Reply #5 on:** 12 Aug 2011, 01:59 pm »

Quote from: AudioSoul on 12 Aug 2011, 04:33 am

There is a Technics SP-15 on Ebay right now $399.00 for buy it now. I would get it myself but I already have four TT's.
It has a Audiotechnica tonearm with some MM cart. I own a SP-15 and they are great TT's that should give you sound simular to your Well Tempered..........

you mean sp25?

doug s.

Minn Mark · « **Reply #6 on:** 12 Aug 2011, 03:09 pm »

One of my TT is a Pro-ject Debut III. Good value for the money (under 400) and has a nice upgrade path if you choose (better platter, add a Speed Box, swap in a better cart). Comes with a Pro-ject arm and Ortofon cart. Plays great right outta the box.

Mark

doug s. · « **Reply #7 on:** 12 Aug 2011, 03:31 pm »

once again, i will state my oft-stated preference - get a wintage empire 208, mount a nice (rega rb250-based modded?) arm, and have something that will compete w/all but the lunatic-fringe priced decks...

doug s.

dlaloum · « **Reply #8 on:** 12 Aug 2011, 04:26 pm »

I think you should get the "super duper personal preference special" turntable which has ........... and ............ not to mention ........... (fill in the superlatives!)

You just asked an open ended - what do you like best question of a bunch of audiophile equipment geeks !!!!

Only you know what aspects of the Well tempered are the things that satisfied you about it, and drew you to it in the first place... you need to indentify those aspects, and then look for a turntable that does those things very very well....

We all have aspects of the sound that may not matter to us so much, and aspects of the sound that we find critical - identify those, and you are 90% of the way towards working out what to get!

At $1500, you could get a "Rock", or you could save a bit more and go for TOTL vintage 80's - perhaps import a JVC/Victor QL-Y77 from Japan ... (or any of the other great classics available direct from Japan)

Also the TT you choose should be selected as being a good match for your cartridges....

Me I use 2 TT's
Revox B795 (Direct Drive, Linear Tracking, 4g ultra light arm - requires very high compliance cartridge to do its best)
JVC QL-Y5F - the most basic of the JVC table with the Servo Damping feature - great versatile table - but in your shoes If interested in something of this sort, I would look for the Y77 - that used the TOTL JVC DD motor (same as used by Goldmund in some of the references I believe...) - along with the later more sophisticated servo damped arm, and a much improved plinth. (the plinth is the achilles heel of the Y5F)

Do I like them both - you betcha.... but if I could find a Y77 at the right price, I would grab it in a sec....

bye for now

David

Berndt · « **Reply #9 on:** 12 Aug 2011, 05:10 pm »

Quote from: doug s. on 12 Aug 2011, 03:31 pm

once again, i will state my oft-stated preference - get a wintage empire 208, mount a nice (rega rb250-based modded?) arm, and have something that will compete w/all but the lunatic-fringe priced decks...

doug s.

And once again, ditto kiddo...
Empire strikes back

TheChairGuy · « **Reply #10 on:** 12 Aug 2011, 05:17 pm »

David/dlaloum,

I'm not entirely certain, but I don't think the JVC Y77F was exported to the Us for some reason. The highest end JVC was/is the Y66F...which is a great deck (I own two of them)

As a couple posters noted, the Empire of old are fine but you are buying vintage issues potentially with them. The VPI Classic at USD$2750 is all new, has a substantially better 10.5" arm (longer arm = better tracking all else equal).

Tho, it comes in at a higher price than the OP is looking at. I think at that similar price, a new Well Tempered Simplex might be a good choice, as well.

John

dlaloum · « **Reply #11 on:** 12 Aug 2011, 05:29 pm »

Yes, I don't think it was imported into the US (the QL-Y77 - it apparently made it to Europe, and crops up regularly on some of the Japanese sites.... (where I sometimes spot it and spend a couple of minutes dribbling....)

But it can certainly be picked up in top condition with shipping for under $800 ex Japan.... so it fits the budget easily enough.... and would resell in the US in a flash I would think.

bye for now

David

doug s. · « **Reply #12 on:** 12 Aug 2011, 06:53 pm »

Quote from: TheChairGuy on 12 Aug 2011, 05:17 pm

David/dlaloum,
...As a couple posters noted, the Empire of old are fine but you are buying vintage issues potentially with them. The VPI Classic at USD$2750 is all new, has a substantially better 10.5" arm (longer arm = better tracking all else equal)...

John

the wintage empires are wirtually bullet-proof. certainly, their arms, tho ok, are their weak link. replace w/a better arm, (and sell the old empire arms for $150 & up on ebay), and you will have a sub $1k deck that has amazing performance. maybe even sub $500, if you are a patient shopper.

doug s.

Gopher · « **Reply #13 on:** 12 Aug 2011, 08:32 pm »

I'd like a little more drive/PRaT than my Well Tempered is capable of and I realize I'll lose in terms of the super low noise floor.

From what I've read about good direct drive, I am interested... Whatever I go with has to be compatible with my Zu 103 or Denon 103-D.

I generally like a fast, dynamic and full sound--if it strays from neutral, I find the warmer side more forgivable. My amp and speakers are very transparent, so it needs to be basically competent and able to be properly adjusted.

What about those Sony decks I saw Wayner post about?

wywires · « **Reply #14 on:** 12 Aug 2011, 08:36 pm »

Have you considered a Thorens TD 309? We had one at the last two shows in the Fritz, Zesto, Modwright rooms. Sounded great! At around $1800 with arm new I think it's a decent buy.

AudioSoul · « **Reply #15 on:** 13 Aug 2011, 12:36 am »

Quote from: doug s. on 12 Aug 2011, 01:59 pm

you mean sp25?

doug s.

No I meant a SP-15. It's a great buy for someone. As mentioned I own one and they are rock solid both mechanically and musically.......

bluemike · « **Reply #16 on:** 13 Aug 2011, 12:58 am »

If you like PRAT a Lenco in a modified plinth is the way to go
Not sure how good you are at diy or you can look for one
used

Gopher · « **Reply #17 on:** 19 Sep 2011, 07:12 pm »

Thanks for the ideas everyone. Great thoughts and inputs, though I ended up going a different direction due to a price I couldn't pass up. I'll be getting a Kuzma Stabi S & Stogi S towards the end of the week.

I was REALLY tempted to buy a Well Tempered Amadeus or Simplex, but had to remind myself of the purpose of my sale in the first place.

Assuming I like it, I'm not sure how much better I could do within my range.

Minn Mark · « **Reply #18 on:** 19 Sep 2011, 08:14 pm »

Should be a nice set-up!! What cart will you be using, etc? Let us know your thoughts once its delivered and set up.

Viva la vinyl !

Mark

Gopher · « **Reply #19 on:** 19 Sep 2011, 08:17 pm »

The only cart I have on hand is a Denon DL-103D. It looks like it may be a good, not great match, per vinylendgines resonance frequency calculator....

I guess I will see. I know a friend thought the 103D sounded pretty good on a Stogie Reference arm.