[JLM]

It would really help if you could provide a sketch of the room showing all the openings, bays, windows, and furniture.  12 ft x 18 ft is close to what I had (with hardwood floors, picture window, 2 doors, 2 openings, and another window) and I thought the room sounded pretty good.  My current room was designed following the Cardas "golden cuboid" (8 ft x 13 ft x 22 ft).  So frankly I’m not convinced that you have a problem room (prove it to me).     If you really do have a problem room it probably can't be solved by speakers alone.

Many have suggested a warmer speaker, but that would warm everything.  Some eat everything with chiles.  Are you that kind of single minded listener?

Some here have recommended their favorite speakers.  (Note I like the Fritz Carbon 7 too, but there’s not much to them that lend themselves in particular to a “problem room”).

Controlled directivity designs do make sense in a problem room.  My speakers use a single 8 inch driver (no whizzer cone) so they seriously “beam” higher frequencies, but they cost $2500/pair.  Depending on your musical interest and audiophile taste you may be happy with a single driver design.

A more obviously solution that hasn’t been mentioned is to use a nearfield set-up.  Again check Cardas.  I use that recipe with my “beamy” speakers and have zero room interaction issues plus great imaging.

Use of sub(s) is a very good idea.  It/they can be located where ideal for bass production (which is almost never the best place for imaging) and the sub volume can be adjusted.  Along those lines, check out TBI as a maker of very small speakers/subs that are said to be extremely placement friendly.

[rajacat]

Thanks for the links, especially to the acoustic panels. Any suggestions for how to use them? Should I just buy a few and see what they do to the sound in different places in the room? I actually don't know that I really could put them anywhere useful with my current setup, except for maybe the bass trap.

I heard planar speakers are more sensitive to placement than enclosure speakers, is that the case?

IMO GIK acoustic panels are more pleasing to the eye than ATI panels. I have both and the fabric used to cover the GIK panels is much more refined with a finer weave similar to speaker cloth. The ATI panels just use simple burlap. Also the corners of the GIKs' are sharper so that they have a more refined appearance.   http://www.gikacoustics.com/

[jackman]

I'm making a quick guess but I would say speakers that are most directional with three Audiokinesis self powered subs, or what Tyson said.

If you guys can find something like this for under $1,500 please let everyone know.  Duke's cheapest model, with no sub is almost twice this guy's budget and "Dr." Geddes, with the "new and improved" higher prices,  is twice the OP's budget with NO subwoofers.  From what I understand, these speakers need a subwoofer (or several) because they do not play bass. 

No doubt Duke and Earl (hey, Duke of Earl!) make very good speakers, but none are in this price range.  I think the Salk suggestion is one to explore along with the VMPS.  I've seen some crazy cheap deals on 626R's, as Pez suggested, within the  OP's price range.  These are really good sounding speakers and, although not flavor of the current week, are an excellent value (especially at some of the low prices used models have been selling for lately). 

I have not heard Fritz speakers in person but they get very positive reviews from people who have heard them at shows.  I'd try to find someone local who will let you listen to them.  Lastly, you might want to check out some speakers from Omega.  You will most likely have to sell your amp and get a tube amp but tubes and Omega speakers are an addicting combo and would work in your room.  Louis is on the east coast and should be able so direct you to someone who can give you an audition or maybe let you hear something in his shop.  Don't let your amp dictate which speakers you can get.  That's like choosing a house to fit your furniture.  Check out the system in the attached link.  Don't know if you woud like the sound but I've heard similar and found the sound addictive.   I could live with it, no problem.

http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=96678.0

Lastly, I'm not sure you need "acoustically forgiving speakers", at least no more than the average person.  You've only tried two sets of speakers in an unmatched system.  Your room doesn't look any worse than most rooms and I think your problems are not entirely related to lack of forgiving speakers as much as not trying the right kind of system in your space.  I'd suggest getting out there and trying different speakers before spending any money and then posting questions about whether they would work well with your system and in your home.  Also, see if you can borrow some speakers from local shops or audition from various manufacturers who offer a 30 day audition.  The money you spend on shipping will be worth it if it prevents you from making a bad decision. 


Cheers,

Jack

 

[Tyson]

Yes, deal w/ the room first - otherwise ANY speaker used in there will be comprimised.  GIK is your best resource for that - their art panels look amazing and are very decor friendly.

[neekomax]

Well, here's my sad little attempt at drawing the room in question. 

I drew the 'no bass' zone, which is where the bass frequencies disappear when I had my couch/lp there.
 

[neekomax]

Just want to say thanks for taking the time to help me learn about all this, by the way
 

[Phil A]

Listening position may be a bit far back given the space in between the speakers.  May wish to get a folding chair and see what it sounds like a couple of feet closer.

[I.Greyhound Fan]

Based on that drawing I would not get any type of beaming speaker.  Your listening position is not ideal.  I see you have the speakers toe'd in to your listening postion, that is part of the problem with the dead zone for bass.  I think that a sub or two would take care of that problem.  You may want to consider one of the wireless Martin logan subs that will allow you to place it any where in the room. Or go with dual subs.

http://www.audioadvisor.com/prodinfo.asp?number=MLDYN700

Do you have fabric shades or curtins for your windows, if not get some, that will help with reflections.  I would also go for the acoustic panels and try them in different positions.  Here is some info on placement-

http://www.atsacoustics.com/page--Acoustic-Panels-FAQs--faq.html

http://www.acoustimacfaq.com/

Also, I would put a panel behind and on the side wall of the left speaker, this would help with boominess.  Or place a corner panel by that speaker.

For your budget I would consider the PSB T6's and a sub.  I can't comment on the Fritz speakers because I've never heard them but people rave about them.  But for your size room the T6 floor standers may be the way to go.  Bookshelfs may be too small.

[AJinFLA]

Hi Neeko,

Got your pm and responded, thanks. I promised not to comment about my speakers in this thread. But about your layout, would it be possible to re-arrange the furnishings similar to this?:



may want to try this (or something similar) first, before even considering new speakers, mine included (as much as I would like for you to purchase a pair, if you don't need to spend anything except some energy... ).

cheers,

AJ

[bpape]

I would agree that what AJ posted would be a much better setup and a lot better room coverage overall.  The way it's set up now, you're pretty much right at a boundary and the speakers are very asymetrically loaded.

Bryan

[WGH]

The Fritz Carbon speakers are terrific if you can swing it, I have heard them a couple of times and they are always on the top of my recommended list.

A used speaker that would easily fit in your budget (think around $1000) is the Von Schweikert VR2. The VR2 does it all without being a bright speaker and it has bass down to 25 Hz which help your low end problem. The modified transmission line design has a front port so the speaker can be placed closer to the wall and being a transmission line the bass doesn't thump like a traditional ported speaker.

I have written about the VR2's many times but don't just take my word for their performance, Jaco Pastorius recently compared them to the $7995 Von Schweikert VR-35:

I have only a little worry about the VR-35,and that is that the impulse response and coherence between the 10" bass and front-array aren't as fast and coherent as my VR-2,which are incredible at that.I do play some drums and bass,and I'm very interested in the interplay between bassist and drummer in very complex music,so that area is very important to me.

I just love the VR-2!! ,and in my room actually one of the most "musical" and easy VSA speaker I've owned to work with from all I've tried! They are easy to place and easy to get good overall musical balance,easy to drive with my Consonance M800SE(push-pull EL34 around 75w in ultralinear),and also gives very nice result with my DIY class-D Hypex.

The VR-2's show up once in a while in Audiogon but if you are in a hurry chgolatin2 has a pair for sale just 17 hours away in Chicago.
http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=96716.0

Wayne

[neekomax]

It's a good thought AJ, one that I had always discounted for the practical problem of having to put the tv and the speakers in front of the only windows in the room. It would cut down on natural light, among other things. But I do see the merit in terms of potentially improving the sound in the room. If I could figure out a way to get the tv away from my 2 channel stuff, as in divide it into two systems, maybe I could be more flexible with speaker placement there.

The other one I'm considering is putting everything against the 8' wall at the top, with the couch facing it, sort of in front of the french doors, with enough room to walk around it, of course.

[Duke]

Duke's cheapest model, with no sub is almost twice this guy's budget...

Very true!

I'm working on a model that will come in under two grand, so I'm getting closer, but 1.5 grand is really hard to do with the big boxes that my approach calls for. 

 

Based on that drawing I would not get any type of beaming speaker.  Your listening position is not ideal. 

With speakers having a uniform (but fairly narrow) radiation pattern, toed in severely (like 45 degrees or so), two relevant advantages accrue:  First, the off-centerline soundstaging holds up a lot better than normal.  Second, the tonal balance holds up unusually well even for listening positions well off-axis, like at the dining room table, or even farther off to that side. 

Philosophically, here's how I look at it:  A grand piano would sound great in that room no matter where you put it, and no matter where you listened to it, though admittedly some locations of piano and/or listener would be better than others.  I think a good speaker system should have similar characteristics, and one way to do that is to emulate some of what the piano does well - namely, generate off-axis energy that has approximately the same spectral balance as the on-axis energy (defined by where the soundboard is "pointing" for the grand piano). 

[JLM]

OK, so the layout is unusual but not horrible.  It's bigger than I thought (I would have called it equivalent to a 15 ft x 18 ft room and bigger is always better).

Another option would be to try setting up opposite of AJ's suggestion, in front of the 7 foot wall.  That way the TV isn't blocking the window and the couch could be pulled away from the window (sitting against a back wall is "un-recommended" by nearly everyone).  This would provide a fairly symmetrical room layout like AJ's with the couch in front of the system and a sort of nearfield setup.

[I.Greyhound Fan]

Let me get this straight.  The original poster has a budget of $1500 and you guys are asking him to get a new amp so that he can buy speakers out of his budget or just buy speakers out of his budget.

Why don't you help the guy out and offer suggestions in his budget?

Here, this will solve his problems-

http://www.higherfi.com/million/

Neeko, keep your Acurus, its a good integrated amp. 

[jackman]

Very true!

I'm working on a model that will come in under two grand, so I'm getting closer, but 1.5 grand is really hard to do with the big boxes that my approach calls for. 

 
With speakers having a uniform (but fairly narrow) radiation pattern, toed in severely (like 45 degrees or so), two relevant advantages accrue:  First, the off-centerline soundstaging holds up a lot better than normal.  Second, the tonal balance holds up unusually well even for listening positions well off-axis, like at the dining room table, or even farther off to that side. 

Philosophically, here's how I look at it:  A grand piano would sound great in that room no matter where you put it, and no matter where you listened to it, though admittedly some locations of piano and/or listener would be better than others.  I think a good speaker system should have similar characteristics, and one way to do that is to emulate some of what the piano does well - namely, generate off-axis energy that has approximately the same spectral balance as the on-axis energy (defined by where the soundboard is "pointing" for the grand piano).

Hi Duke,
I was not beng critical and have a great deal of respect for the way you rub your company and the value you provide your customers. Your new speakers sound very cool and I look forward to learning more about them.

Cheers
J

[jackman]

Let me get this straight.  The original poster has a budget of $1500 and you guys are asking him to get a new amp so that he can buy speakers out of his budget or just buy speakers out of his budget.

Why don't you help the guy out and offer suggestions in his budget?

Here, this will solve his problems-

http://www.higherfi.com/million/

Neeko, keep your Acurus, its a good integrated amp.

Dead link.

[Tyson]

Yes, the Acurus is fine, stick with it.  Re-arrange the room, get some GIK panels, and either econowaves, VMPS 626r's (which are a great bargain), or some Fritz Carbon 7's for this budget.  And some heavy drapes for the windows.  Subs are a good option for down the road, but IMO are not needed immediately.

[neekomax]

Here, this will solve his problems-

http://www.higherfi.com/million/

Neeko, keep your Acurus, its a good integrated amp.

Is that site for real? 

Yeah, I think the Acurus is a good piece of gear, I'm definitely keeping it around no matter what. I actually missed the part where somebody suggested I needed a new amp, I'll have to re-read the thread.

My head is spinning a bit from all the permutations, and since any one of these suggestions- speakers, room layouts, etc. require its own consideration, I have plenty to chew on.

I agree with most of you that I will be able to improve sound by moving stuff around, rather than instantly spending a bunch of loot. That said, I'm not really that into the sound from either set of speakers I currently own; the old B&W DM602s2 and the Def Tech BP8020. So I'm in the market for speakers for sure, even if my room were suddenly Carnegie Hall. And I'm fairly certain that my electronics will not need upgrading for a new set of speakers. The speakers are the weak link here, and I keep hearing that they should be the best part of a stereo system.

Anyhoo, I think I'm gonna try out AJ's scheme, see what happens. Here's to some late night furniture moving.

[neekomax]

Well, I did it. That was a PITA fo' sho'. Sweating, untangling wires, I kept having to remind myself, 'this is supposed to be fun, this is fun, c'mon, enjoy it...' ...

Anyhoo. The sound is better. I'm too tired to really tell how much better.

The setup certainly has serious impracticalities for living. This says, "I value good sound over pretty much every other lifestyle consideration." Hence, it may be changing soon. Fun to experiment, though. Life is short.