Acoustically forgiving speakers?

neekomax · « **on:** 31 Jul 2011, 04:19 am »

In your humble and learned opinions, which speakers would be the most forgiving of a room with difficult acoustics (french doors, vestibules and bays, etc)? It seems to have dead zones, especially in the lower frequencies, and the sound can be a bit harsh and echoey in general.

Omnidirectionals like the Decware ERR or Ohm Walsh's? Floorstanders or monitors? I'd like to keep them under $1,500, new or used doesn't matter. I'd be powering them with an Acurus DIA-100 passive pre integrated fed from a Peachtree Decco, digital sources (SACD player and MAc Mini).

Thanks doods...

I.Greyhound Fan · « **Reply #1 on:** 31 Jul 2011, 05:11 am »

PSB's IMO would fit the bill. They typically have a warmer sound (the Synchrony line and new Imagine and Image lines) and smooth laid back treble. Dynaudio's also come to mind but are probably out of your price ran ge.

Here's a pair of Imagine T B-stock for $1599pr or the Image T6's for $959pr.

http://www.saturdayaudio.com/picturepages/psb_bstock.htm

Salk Song Towers will fit the Bill as well-

http://www.salksound.com/songtower%20reviews.htm

Another option would be to go with some bookshelf speakers and 2 subs. Or consider adding a sub to a pair of floor standers.

PSB B6's, NHT Classic Three's are 2 warmer bookshelfs that come to mind. Pair this with a pair of Emotiva subs to fit your budget http://www.emotiva.com/ultra_sub10.shtm

Paradigm Titans might work too. I almost bought a pair for my son but ended up with the PSB B6's. The B6's seemed more balanced and the B-stock price was a deciding factor. The Paradigms have more air though and a bit more resolution on the top end. The PSB's work well in my son's 13x13' room which echo's as well and can be harsh. The B6's really help tame some of the problems with the room.

Martin Logans might work but you would have to spend more than your budget or find a used pair.

Have you looked into room treatments with acoustic panels to help with the harshness?

Tyson · « **Reply #2 on:** 31 Jul 2011, 05:19 am »

Something with a narrow dispersion pattern - you want them interacting with the environment as little as possible - Geddes and AudioKenesis come to mind. If you can DIY, then the "Econowaves" would be a good choice, and cheaper.

jimdgoulding · « **Reply #3 on:** 31 Jul 2011, 06:36 am »

I'm making a quick guess but I would say speakers that are most directional with three Audiokinesis self powered subs, or what Tyson said.

neekomax · « **Reply #4 on:** 31 Jul 2011, 06:39 am »

Three subs? Really? Space is sort of a factor, btw...

lonewolfny42 · « **Reply #5 on:** 31 Jul 2011, 06:41 am »

Quote from: neekomax on 31 Jul 2011, 06:39 am

Three subs? Really? Space is sort of a factor, btw...

You didn't mention the size of your room....

neekomax · « **Reply #6 on:** 31 Jul 2011, 06:47 am »

Well, it's not just a listening room, it's also my living room and my dining room... all in about 12' x 18'. So I can't have stuff too much out in the middle of the room.

lonewolfny42 · « **Reply #7 on:** 31 Jul 2011, 07:00 am »

Looks like your system is "stuck in the corner"....

http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?action=gallery;area=browse;album=5688

A nice match might be the Fritz Carbon 7 speakers...

neekomax · « **Reply #8 on:** 31 Jul 2011, 07:06 am »

Quote from: I.Greyhound Fan on 31 Jul 2011, 05:11 am

PSB's IMO would fit the bill. They typically have a warmer sound (the Synchrony line and new Imagine and Image lines) and smooth laid back treble. Dynaudio's also come to mind but are probably out of your price ran ge.

Here's a pair of Imagine T B-stock for $1599pr or the Image T6's for $959pr.

http://www.saturdayaudio.com/picturepages/psb_bstock.htm

Salk Song Towers will fit the Bill as well-

http://www.salksound.com/songtower%20reviews.htm

Another option would be to go with some bookshelf speakers and 2 subs. Or consider adding a sub to a pair of floor standers.

PSB B6's, NHT Classic Three's are 2 warmer bookshelfs that come to mind. Pair this with a pair of Emotiva subs to fit your budget http://www.emotiva.com/ultra_sub10.shtm

Paradigm Titans might work too. I almost bought a pair for my son but ended up with the PSB B6's. The B6's seemed more balanced and the B-stock price was a deciding factor. The Paradigms have more air though and a bit more resolution on the top end. The PSB's work well in my son's 13x13' room which echo's as well and can be harsh. The B6's really help tame some of the problems with the room.

Martin Logans might work but you would have to spend more than your budget or find a used pair.

Have you looked into room treatments with acoustic panels to help with the harshness?

I don't really know where to start with room treatments, but I'm open to it.

Thanks for the specific speaker recommendations. The Image T6 towers for $959 seem like a good speaker for then money, reasonably efficient, and I can hopefully audition them at a dealer not too far away. Have you heard them yourself?

Anyone have any thoughts on the Tekton M-Lore? Totem Arro? These both seem reasonably priced and people seem to like 'em. Are their designs forgiving or very sensitive to placement and room quality?

neekomax · « **Reply #9 on:** 31 Jul 2011, 07:10 am »

Quote from: lonewolfny42 on 31 Jul 2011, 07:00 am

Looks like your system is "stuck in the corner"....

http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?action=gallery;area=browse;album=5688

A nice match might be the Fritz Carbon 7 speakers...

Exactly. I have moved my listening position to a good spot to compensate for this, but it's not ideal, and I know things will tighten up when I move stuff to a better spot. Thing is, I have doors, windows or bays/vestibules everywhere in this place. It looks great, it just sucks as a place to set up a sound system.

Why the Fritz Carbon 7? How much do they cost? I have a pair of budget stands, will they need better ones?

lonewolfny42 · « **Reply #10 on:** 31 Jul 2011, 07:16 am »

Quote

Why the Fritz Carbon 7?

A very good speaker that is warm...not "harsh"... I think it would do well in your room..

A few reviews....

http://www.sonicflare.com/archives/fritz-carbon-7-loudspeaker-review.php

http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=79649.0

http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=86907.0

tesseract · « **Reply #11 on:** 31 Jul 2011, 08:49 am »

I agree that constant directivity designs like AudioKinesis, Chase SHO-10, the upcoming Soundfield Audio Monitor 1, or the GedLee's would work well in your room, or any room for that matter. They are very acoustically friendly speakers. If you can find a way to fit 2 or 3 small subs in there somewhere, do it, that too is a good solution for room problems.

The Tekton Lore is high on my list for an audition, if I can find a way.

tesseract · « **Reply #12 on:** 31 Jul 2011, 08:54 am »

Quote from: jimdgoulding on 31 Jul 2011, 06:36 am

I'm making a quick guess but I would say speakers that are most directional with three Audiokinesis self powered subs, or what Tyson said.

Or even a single AudioKinesis system which includes four subs.

bpape · « **Reply #13 on:** 31 Jul 2011, 12:54 pm »

Controlled directivity can certainly help some of the initial problems interacting with a room. It's not going to fix harshness/hardness though. It is also not going to negate the need to pay very close attention to speaker and seating placement for best response, though those types of designs can certainly help.

Just understand that all of those things are to address issues in the frequency domain (and they can do a very good job of that). That said, they can not address excessive decay times in a space which can mask harmonic structures, imaging cues, etc.

In a room that's approx 12x18, you don't need a huge speaker. Smaller speakers also tend to be easier to place both from a performance standpoint and from a WAF standpoint.

Bryan

neekomax · « **Reply #14 on:** 31 Jul 2011, 01:02 pm »

Interesting, thanks for all the thoughts.

Bryan: Luckily (or unluckily, maybe), there's no W for whom A is a an F

bpape · « **Reply #15 on:** 31 Jul 2011, 01:14 pm »

Well, then that makes things a lot easier

Letitroll98 · « **Reply #16 on:** 31 Jul 2011, 01:39 pm »

I would offer two off the wall suggestions as alternates, not substitutes, for the excellent suggestions so far, just more to think on.

The first would be our own AJinFla's Soundfield Audio Model One's pictured below. Small so you can fit them in tight spaces and blend with decor, no need for a sub as they include one in the speaker (with it's own dedicated amp), very easy to drive, beautiful tone and incredible dynamics, unlike anything, and I mean anything, you've ever heard in a small speaker. Initial estimated price is $995 a pair, but I think AJ may raise this slightly soon.

Below is a better picture of them, but with the JBL woofer that has been replaced with the one you see above.

More info on the Capitol Audiofest thread http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=91026.40

The second would be the Clairaudient model 1, again pictured below. They are the tiny cubes in the back. I could not believe so much sound was coming out of two tiny little boxes. Room filling, coherent, beautiful tone from a 3" driver in front paired with a 3 1/2" passive radiator in the rear. You would need a sub, but they were playing very convincingly without one when I heard them. $995 a pair (the 2+2's in the front are $5,000 a pair).

I.Greyhound Fan · « **Reply #17 on:** 31 Jul 2011, 05:34 pm »

For speakers that beam, you might want to consider a pair of Magnepan MG12's and pair them with a sub. I own a pair of the MG 1.6 QR's and the MMG's. The MMG's sound better when pushed out to within 3 feet of the corners of the room they are in. This really improves the bass. The MG12's are the model in between the MMGs and 1.6's. You will need a good amp that can provide at least 120wpc for them if you like to play it loud.

http://www.magnepan.com/model_MG_12

Here's a site for acoustic panels that you can place on reflecting walls. http://www.atsacoustics.com/cat--ATS-Acoustic-Panels--100.html

http://www.atsacoustics.com/bass-traps.html -these will help if you have to place your speakers near the corners.

For windows, it helps if you have fabric shades or curtins. Area rugs help with hard floors.

neekomax · « **Reply #18 on:** 31 Jul 2011, 06:10 pm »

Thanks for the links, especially to the acoustic panels. Any suggestions for how to use them? Should I just buy a few and see what they do to the sound in different places in the room? I actually don't know that I really could put them anywhere useful with my current setup, except for maybe the bass trap.

I heard planar speakers are more sensitive to placement than enclosure speakers, is that the case?

Pez · « **Reply #19 on:** 31 Jul 2011, 06:11 pm »

Just want to throw out there that the VMPS 626Rs should be at the top of your short list.