[Robert C. Schult]

Just to set the record straight...I don't believe I ever said that adding the RSA SC improved the sound of my system...In fact, I PURPOSELY did not share any of my impressions about the RSA SC publicly even tho I did audition it....

Now I did say the RSA MSE GenIIs were good...but I've since found that there are quite a few ICs that work even better in my system...Argent Audio Jaden Signatures, Argent Audio Pursang, Acoustic Zen Silver Ref Mk II, Onix Grand Masters and the Eichmann eXpress6 Series 2s...

I think Zybar's IC comparison accurately and concisely sums up what I have also experienced with the same cables...

To spin off an old SNL skit…”Mad Dog, you….” Na! I needn’t go that far. But if there are any of you folks who have found yourself part of a certain secret society, it’s my turn to set the record straight. And, straight it will be.

Back in September of last year we offered an audition tour of our MSE Gen.II cabling. We were the “New Kid” on the block and not many were familiar with us. I offered the tour to five volunteer participants of my choosing who met the requirements I set (see  http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=4864.msg41954#41954&highlight=#41954).

Five brave souled participants were chosen and we were off. Over the course of time we received very favorable feedback which, starting in Nov./Dec., seemed to be bringing other volunteers out of the woodwork of which Mad Dog was one. Honestly, I was a bit offended that now certain folk wanted to jump on the bandwagon after it seemed the water was tested and found safe by the initial participants. In my view, I didn’t want to minimize my appreciation for those who volunteered when the window was open. To me, they risked valuable time and effort to audition offerings from, for all they new, a company that had no real passion for the craft but was just a huckster. I’m convinced all of the woodwork folk could have requested to be part of the tour during the window of opportunity I allowed but they didn’t.

Forward to December. Mad DOg posted some comment about not being able to become part of the audition tour. Out of wanting to be generous and helpful, I caved after some conversation via the phone with Mad DOg and agreed to add him, and I think two or three others, to the tour. I thought it at the time but ignored it…”bad judgment call Robert!”. Should have apologetically stuck to my guns.

The jist of the conversation was this:

RSA: What gear do you have.
 
MD: Such and such.

RSA: Here’s what you can expect with our cables partnering your set up. If that’s the sound you prefer, then the audition will be worth your time.

MD: Well, no, that’s not the sound I prefer and my system doesn’t sound like that.

RSA: Hmmm. I’ll take your word for it. You’ll see the audition pack soon.

My response after “Hmmm…” should have been different. I have a pretty good scope of how a lot of gear “sounds” and MDs gear is not an exception. In my view, MD has done a good job of tailoring his system to address certain characteristics he finds unfavorable to his preferences howbeit with it’s own set of compromises. I believe this for a couple of reasons. First, I know at least one of the cables he mentions above in the quote intentionally rolls off certain frequencies to achieve a certain signature. It’s also one of his long time favorites. If I remember correctly, this roll off was his own admission. Nevertheless, it’s something I know as fact regarding this cable.

Secondly, as the audition turned out, the sound I suggested he would experience with our cabling partnering his gear turned out to be spot on. How could this be? Well, I maintain it’s because our cables do an excellent job revealing the electronics it’s mated to. I’ve always said and continue to say that if one’s gear is chosen to honestly reflect one’s listening preferences and biases, then our offerings will prove to be keepers over the long haul. If one needs to use cabling to “tune” a given system, then our offerings really become kind of a crap shoot. End users of our products can testify to this.

Now, to stay above board here, subsequent personal conversation with MD after his audition told me that he believed in no uncertain terms his impressions had more to do with his gear than our cables and that he wanted to be careful in making that known with any posts he would submit here. I thought that was fair.

What I don’t think is fair and have little tolerance for is when our cables receive a politely word-smithed bum rap for their performance when all they’re doing by and large is telling you about the other components. If someone doesn’t like what our cabling is revealing, I don’t have a problem with that at all and I can understand and deal with that but that’s not the impression I got from MDs public posts.

I recently had a client who understood his system very well and tried $2500.00 worth of our cables. He loved what the cables did but couldn’t live with the certain deficiency he understood the cables were revealing about his system. I regretfully (of course) but gladly refunded his investment. He understood that, with his present set up, he needed cabling that would help tune out an upper bass cancellation he was experiencing between the interaction of his woofer, mid driver section and floor reflections.  I didn’t need to educate him on what was happening, he already knew and will address the source of the cancellation at a later date if and when finances allow for other speakers that address this issue while maintaining the other virtues he appreciates about his present speakers. He’ll also be back for our cables then.

As I read MD’s posts regarding his audition, I felt eloquently deceived. Maybe I’m delusional but I don’t think so…I have a pretty good gut on reading between the lines most of the time. I felt that while his comments were certainly polite, that’s all they were. Polite is not the same as honesty and/or accuracy. I don’t appreciate such deception, intentional or not.

As a result, I said to myself…”screw this” and after one more audition, pulled the tour home. I probably reacted hurtfully which isn’t usually the best way to deal with things but I did what I did and that’s done. My apologies to the few who I said would see the audition pack but didn’t.

Further, I discovered that MD had apparently started a secret society of PMs where at the least our cable products were discussed in a less than polite manner. I asked if I could join but evidently my request for membership was declined.

A few more comments I imagine will evoke something and if so, so be it. If I wasn’t confident in my opinions, I wouldn’t state them.

Zybar’s experience with our cables baffled me for some time because I knew that what he described was not characteristic of our cables. At the same time, I didn’t doubt his impressions. I just couldn’t figure out why his impressions were so. I also have clients who have replaced Jadens and Pursangs with our cabling so it was all the more baffling to me. I have very high esteem for Argent products as well as the others MD mentioned above and mean them no discredit at all. In certain applications, these cables will be your ticket and deservedly so. In other applications where the approach more closely fits with what  we endevor to be about and what I mentioned above, I trust we’re going to be your ticket.

Here’s what I’ve come to learn. I believe the source of Zybar’s impressions was at least partially caused by the Tenor amps he was using. OTL amps are hard to get right and can suffer from some excessive brightness amidst all the things they can do so well. As I’ve come to experience and learn, OTL designs that meet my expectations are Atma-Sphere and Berning. While not having personal experience with the Tenors, one of my associates has and I explicitly trust his ears and his over 20 years of experience in this hobby. His impressions are that while good, these amps have a bit of etch to them in the upper registers. Same with the Bernings but to a much much lesser degree... perhaps not even discernable in many instances. The Atma-Spheres’ nail it! as far as I can tell. After 25 years, they know all the tricks to doing “OTL Done”. They are truly state of art says I. Anyway, I don’t assume to know why Zybar replaced the Tenors with the Rowland gear but I’m betting it wasn’t because the Rowlands were inferior to the Tenors. I do know the Rowland gear exhibits no edge, has an engaging well rounded character without sacrificing details…to a very good degree, the best of both worlds; tube and solid state. What Atma-Sphere is to the tube community and the art of music reproduction, Rowland is to the transistor community and the art of music reproduction. Perhaps in the near future, more eastern states dealers will recognize this.  

 Lastly, you’ll notice most of my comment here is not engaging to conversation. That is purposeful. As many as want to, of course, can post whatever response they want. Short of me being convinced that I’m flat out wrong (which I’m not adverse to), I probably won’t contribute more to this thread. It’s April, January is long past and I really don’t want to fight. I just want to be a "Luv Puppy" and hell, maybe even enjoy a beer with MD someday....It could happen!

[Horsehead]

Robert- just so you know, Zybar never had a pair of Tenors, but a pair of Kora Cosmos Reference Monoblocks.

[Tyson]

This post really doesn't belong in the critics circle.  I'm moving it to the Audio Central circle, hopefully things will stay nice and it won't need to be moved again to Fight Club.

Also, Robert, you post here enough that you might want a circle of your own, then you can have a centralized area of information for posts just like this.

[Robert C. Schult]

Horsehead...
Ooops! I knew that! And I don't think the Koras' are OTL. Looks like I'm back to square one on this one until if and when I find out more about Kora. My comments about Tenors, OTLs and such stand, they just don't have anything to do with Zybar! LOL!

Sorry George.

[Robert C. Schult]

Tyson, or who it concerns, is Audio Circle offering Ridge Street a circle?

[Marbles]

It is my understanding that John R, the owner of AC will not offer ANY further circles to companies whose only products are cables.

[Robert C. Schult]

... ANY further circles to companies whose only products are cables.

How 'bout closer circles and what does the ANY stand for anyway?

[Marbles]

Not sure wht you mean, but any questions should be taken up with John R.

I will forward his email addy to you.

[TheChairGuy]

I have no opinion in any direction here as I have not heard any of the IC's discussed, I just want to again say that you, Robert, have quite an entertaining flair for writing.

Let's just keep the back and forth rebuttal of the rebuttable civil between you and Zybar/Mad DOg and we'll keep an interesting thread in Audio Central.  People are allowed to have opinions, strong ones even, in any democratic society.

If it gets too rancorous, that purveyor and connoissieur of malice and mayhem Pez is salivating at the idea of yet another post dumped into his clutches over at Fight Club.  

[zybar]

Robert,

First off, I have the upmost respect for you and your products (as I have said to you privately and publicly in the past).

The reason I looked into replacing the Kora Cosmos Reference Monoblocks was simply that I felt that the VMPS RM 40's needed more than 100 watts of juice and that the load the 40's presented was outside of the zone the Koras excelled at.  The Koras run in pure Class A and produce 100 watts of triode power.  They don't do well at loads below 4 ohms.  I found that in my room (25x18x7) and at my listening levels that they were being pushed too hard.

I chose the Rowland 201's because they were (and still are) the best sounding non-tube amp I have had the pleasure of trying.  In many ways they remind of a good pair of tube amps (although that aren't as liquid and palpable as a good tube amp) with the added weight, extension, and impact.

At some time in the future I will most likely try the Poiema line and see if they improved in the areas I felt the Midnights weren't quite to my liking.

Anyway...not really sure why I am involved in this (other than the fact that I returned the Ridge Street and kept the Argent Audio).

George

[Jon L]

I don't see what the problem is at all, as I can see several indisputable facts:

1)  Cables can never be listened to or reviewed in a vacuum.  They always and only can be listened to in the context of a given system and the listener's preferences.  

2)  The fact Mad Dog preferred cable A over cable B in his system for his tastes is BY definition a true fact.  This does not mean someone else listening to this setup cannot prefer cable B, nor that cable A will be preferred by Mad Dog in a different system.  

3)  I hope nobody is claiming cable A or B is THE Truth.  Having bought, listened to, and made enough cables myself, I will never be convinced of such claims.  UNLESS, someone can compare cable A and B AGAINST a true "bypass."  This would require a setup where cable A, B, and "no cable" can rapidly be switched via switch.  The "no cable" would be difficult to produce since even male-RCA to male-RCA plug will have a sound of its own.  

Now I know Mad Dog and system, therefore I also know he is FAR away from being deceptive, mean, or purposely hurtful.  If any impression of impropriety or dishonesty was generated, I KNOW it wasn't b/c of mean spirit.  I also believe he will agree with my 3 points.  In fact, I think Robert probably would agree also.  

If that's the case, well, there's not much to disagree on, is there?  As somebody said, let's enjoy the music.

[satfrat]

I don't see what the problem is at all, as I can see several indisputable facts:

1)  Cables can never be listened to or reviewed in a vacuum.  They always and only can be listened to in the context of a given system and the listener's preferences.  

2)  The fact Mad Dog preferred cable A over cable B in his system for his tastes is BY definition a true fact.  This does not mean someone else listening to this setup cannot prefer cable B, nor that cable A will be preferred by Mad Dog in a different syst ...

                          Maybe Jon you don't see the problem because you're not a member of the "secret club"? Neither am I so I tend to agree with you. BUT I can speculate,,,, and I will. I get the feeling that Mad DOg has been PM'ing AC members with his impressions of what the Ridge Street MSE cables ARE,,,, like these impressions are indeed FACTS! Now if this is indeed the case, then Robert's perception of his cable/equipment discussions with Mad DOg prior to his audition are indeed understandable and it's Mad DOg's PM'ing actions that are NOT. As you say Jon, everyone is entitled to their opinions and these are just some of mine. Regards, Robin

[John Casler]

Maybe Jon you don't see the problem because you're not a member of the "secret club"? Neither am I so I tend to agree with you. BUT I can speculate,,,, and I will. I get the feeling that Mad DOg has been PM'ing AC members with his impressions of what the Ridge Street MSE cables ARE,,,, like these impressions are indeed FACTS! Now if this is indeed the case, then Robert's perception of his cable/equipment discussions with Mad DOg prior to his audition are indeed understandable and it's Mad DOg's PM'ing actions that are NOT.  As you say Jon, everyone is entitled to their opinions and these are just some of mine.  Regards, Robin...

Hi Guys,

What a funny hobby we have here, were such "drama" is created, where none exists.

Knowing Mad Dog and both hearing first hand, and reading his reviews, I fail to understand what this is all about.

At every point in his mentions of the cables (and other products), he "emphasizes" that his opinions are relating to his system and preferences.  We all have them.

As far as a "Secret Society"     Give me a break.

I too know the Dog, and he and I sometimes get together and evaluate wire, gear, treatments and tweaks.  While we don't always agree on the sonics (who would want that) in general he evaluates exceptionally well, can pick out very subtle differences quite easily and knows what he likes.

That is what this hobby is all about.  Personally he told me basically what he posted.  He liked the RSA cables and could see how others "really" liked them in their systems.

He also like the interconnects, more than the speaker cables.  So?  

I probably was the one who reviewed them, and found that they sounded best in my system when using both the interconnect and the speaker cable.  I too found them to be "great" cables and have suggested them a few times.

So in essense, we have too much "drama" and "testosterone"  here and not enough understanding.

Sonics are far more important than personalities.

I have heard literally hundreds of interconnects, power cables and speaker cables.  When you get to a certain level, the differences are slight, but if you can hear them, they may make the difference between adding the cable to your system and/or continuing your search.

Great for topics of discussion, but difficult to explain without "offending" someone's preference, or product.

Now if you really want to make most "any" cable, cord, or interconnect sound better, get some of the new "silver treatments" and (carefully) treat each and every connection in your system.

If you have a good ear, you might find it is the best $35 you have spent since getting into the hobby

As Deputy Dog (MD's uncle) used to say "I double dog guarantee it"

[F-100]

"secret club"???  

[eichlerera1]

Robin/Robert etc,
       As a member of the "secret club" (not my choice, MadDog chose to respond in this manner) I feel obliged to defend MD.
       MadDog ALWAYS critiqued the Ridge Street Cables in the context of how it sounded in his system. He never made any universal statement claiming the Ridge Street would be inferior in other people's setups. In fact, he praised Ridge Street as an excellent interconnect. He absolutely never dissed Robert to me.
       Everybody's system and hearing is different. He simply gave me his opinion on the merits of various cables based on his personal experience in HIS system. We are all audio brothers who appreciate fine sound. From all the great feedback on Ridge Street products, I have no doubt that it is a fine product. MadDog has simply suggested there are other equally fine products (indeed perhaps some that may be better) based on what he heard. I really don't think there was any malice intended toward Robert or his cables.
                                                                      PaulG

[Rocket]

Hi,

MadDog and i recently pm'd each other about another product which is unrelated to Ridge Street cables.

We had an interesting discussion about the merits of the product and at the end of the discussion both of us had totally different perceptions of its sonic virtues.  We agreed to disagree.

Neither of us let the other sway ourselves from our impressions.

I don't want to offend anyone at all but i'm sure most of us are mature and sensible enough to discover the merits of different products.

JMHO.

regards

rocket

[maxwalrath]

When we open audiocircle and see the 20 most recent topics, how many of them RIGHT NOW are arguing about how a product sounds compared to another in someone elses system? At least two, and I haven't checked out more than five topics. I think we should all be able to say "that is one person's opinions, given his system/room/taste in music/presentation preferences".

[satfrat]

John Caslor/eichlerea1/F-100/Rocket/Maxwalrath    Like I said, I have NO facts and a agree with JonL's assessments. BUT to speculate, we have someone who's a danc'in one minute with praises of the MSE cable's attributes, slightly backing off from these praises the next, then stating as facts that the MSE cables aren't neutral but in fact veiled with statements of " I'll PM ya". Like Robert said, it's called reading between the lines and making assessments. And another speculation ON MY PART makes one wonder how much of a part Mad DOg's run in with PsychicAnimal over this earlier "change of heart" had to do with Mad DOg's present "facts"?? I suggest to those who want to "get the record straight" that they go back and read the trail from the start of Mad DOg's MSE audition review and take this to the present "setting the record straight" comments from Mad DOg and make up your own mind as to the facts here. I see none here myself!!!! Regards, Robin

[vpolineni]

It's funny how everyone is saying mad dog has objectively critiqued these cables... I asked him privately what he thought of the mse cables.. his reponse was quite different from how his posts read... "secret society" may not be the proper term... but there is an underlying premise that remains true.

[ohenry]

G'afternoon ladies.  Barkeep. . . a round of Midol for everyone!