[neekomax]

So here's a little something I gave a whirl today... 2 speakers per channel. Anyone ever try it? I think I like!

My old B&W DM602 series 2s are being driven by the Peachtree Audio Decco's chip amp, and my Definitive Technology BP8020 floorstanders with active subs are being driven by my Acurus DIA100 MkII amplifier, fed from the Decco's preamp out. Sources are Mac mini via USB, Apple TV via optical which allows streaming, PS3 for BluRay and cable via optical as well (Marantz SACD/DVD player is on its way, btw).

Once I balanced the Acurus' volume control with the Decco's output, the sound has been great. Basically I thought of this because the Def Techs have great (sub) bass and highs, but the low mids (frequencies that a bass player might make playing high on the neck) were lacking because the Def Tech's mid drivers are only 3.5". The B&Ws, however, excel in these frequencies, and are round and warm.

So basically, highs, bass, and sub bass are nicely present via Acurus+Def Tech, and the sound is warmed and filled out by the Decco+B&W team. It's actually making for a great balance, especially for acoustic and jazz. Haven't listened to much pop/rock/soul (my other mainstays)on it yet. Somehow the stereo sound stage remains quite good, possibly better,  maybe because the B&W's are helping out with that. Low volume sound also is improved.

I'm new to this whole audiophile scene, so I don't know if I'm breaking some rule or if lots of people do this, but I thought I'd see what you guys think.



 

[srb]

So here's a little something I gave a whirl today... 2 speakers per channel. Anyone ever try it? I think I like!

I'm new to this whole audiophile scene, so I don't know if I'm breaking some rule or if lots of people do this, but I thought I'd see what you guys think.

You have definitely broken audiophile rules, but I'm pretty sure it's not punishable by law!  I have fooled around a bit with this concept.  I tried various combinations of B&W 602 S3, B&W DM302 and KEF Cresta 1.  My results were similar to yours, kind of like a nice coffee blend with one medium quality bean making up for the deficiencies of another.
 
This was with 4 channels of identical fairly high quality amplification (Audio Refinement Multi-5 with 125W/ch @ 8 ohm, 200W/ch @ 4 ohm).  I tried it again with two pairs of my current speakers which are both much higher quality than the previous speakers, Opera Diva Callas (Scanspeak Revelator TMM) and GR Research Diluceo (Eton and Aurum Cantus ribbon MTM).
 
This time the sum of the parts was less than the individual parts and the resulting sound lost a bit of clarity, focus and tonal balance.  This is probably to be expected with cancellation and reinforcement of various frequencies unaccounted for in the "design" of the multi-speaker array.
 
I think if you eventually upgrade to a pair of speakers that have little lacking in sound quality other than perhaps limited low frequency response, you may come to the same conclusion.  But for now, your ears are the judge, and I don't doubt that you enjoy the sound of the present combination more than either speaker individually, as I did in my earlier experiment.
 
Steve

[Chromisdesigns]

Ah, this brings back memories -- the mini "wall of sound" approach we used to try in the dorms and group houses.  A couple favorite combos at the time were stacked Large Advents (2 pair, top ones inverted to put the tweeters in the middle), a pair of the Advents with Dynaco A25's sitting on top of them, and one group house had a complicated series/parallel Advent wall with at least 8 pairs of speakers, driven by bridged Dynaco 410's.  This one was in an old house set for demolition, that was being rented to a bunch of artists in the interim -- they sawed out the second floor except for a gallery loft around the edges for sleeping, so they could get their big canvases in, and set up the "wall" on one end of the big open space.

Mostly, they were loud...but I do remember the lack of "boxy" sound, especially the system with 16 speakers. 

[jackman]

You seem like a nice guy and I really admire your enthusiasm. It's fun trying different configurations and messing around with your system. I like to play with speaker toe in  and room configurations, etc. 

Four speakers set up the way yours are is not going to give you good sound. It might be good if you are having a crazy party and want a large wall of sound but you will never get good sound quality audiophiles strive for.

I'm not going to give any advice on audio systems, I've made too many mistakes over the years!  Also, learning about audio is a lot of fun and the journey should be a fun discovery as you learn what you like and what you dislike. You will hear really expensive systems that sound bad to you, and modest ones that are well thought out that sound great. You should see if your city has an audio club or audiophile club. Also, local get-togethers are a great opportunity to audition new gear and hear other peoe's systems, without having to shell out cash and find out you bought a system you hate.

The last thing I will suggest is to take your time. Put some thought into your system and make sure your components work well together, and keep in mind the importance if your room. A system that sounds good in a room with treatments and carpeting might sound bad in a lively room with lots of reflective surfaces. 

There are so many choices available to you and so many different opinions that it can get confusing and frustrating...not to mention expensive. There are also so many flavors of the week and snake oil salesmen in this hobby. I try to avoid these types but they can be pretty tempting to many people.

Good luck to you! 

[tesseract]

This time the sum of the parts was less than the individual parts and the resulting sound lost a bit of clarity, focus and tonal balance.  This is probably to be expected with cancellation and reinforcement of various frequencies unaccounted for in the "design" of the multi-speaker array.
 
I think if you eventually upgrade to a pair of speakers that have little lacking in sound quality other than perhaps limited low frequency response, you may come to the same conclusion.  But for now, your ears are the judge, and I don't doubt that you enjoy the sound of the present combination more than either speaker individually, as I did in my earlier experiment.

I don't agree that you need to double up because the speakers are poor quality. Those speakers were designed by people that know what they are doing, and another disparate pair of speakers is not part of the design. It doesn't work that way at all.

Integrate one pair of speakers properly, not two improperly.

[tesseract]

neekomax - If a scenario like this seems to work, then something is terribly wrong to begin with. Barring the electronics, which is unlikely to be the issue, I would first point my finger at the loudspeaker/room interface.

For starters, move the right speaker away from the wall. This means you have to kick the Def Techs aside. Those speakers need to be at least 18" from any room boundaries. Why do I say kick the Def Techs to the curb? Because I am biased towards the B&W is all.    

Either way, pick a speaker pair and stick with them, then optimize the set up. Take a look at some of the galleries here at AC for visuals, and keep posting and asking questions, that what audio boards are for.

[neekomax]

You have definitely broken audiophile rules, but I'm pretty sure it's not punishable by law!  I have fooled around a bit with this concept.  I tried various combinations of B&W 602 S3, B&W DM302 and KEF Cresta 1.  My results were similar to yours, kind of like a nice coffee blend with one medium quality bean making up for the deficiencies of another.
 
I think if you eventually upgrade to a pair of speakers that have little lacking in sound quality other than perhaps limited low frequency response, you may come to the same conclusion.  But for now, your ears are the judge, and I don't doubt that you enjoy the sound of the present combination more than either speaker individually, as I did in my earlier experiment.
 

Good to know I'm not alone in thinking this would be a cool idea, at least for a while. I realize that the haphazard hybridization of speaker systems runs counter to the certain purism that seems part of this culture. But I didn't do it to get the system louder or just cause I could; it was really because I realized that each amp/speaker combo was bringing forward frequencies that the other wasn't. 

I (recently) got the Def Techs (used) because the B&Ws were lacking 'sparkle' and the Polk Audio sub I had was giving me sloppy bass that could only be really heard in certain spots in the room. I have found that having stereo subs is waaaaay better for some thump, and with a little tweaking of their amp levels, their bass is respectably tight as well. But the Def Techs definitely have a donut hole in their freq. response, probably right around 90-100 Hz. 

Hence the 'blend' trick, which seems a better solution than buying yet more stuff, a new pernicious habit I'm now trying to control a bit.

Surely, though, the end game involves some big-boy, real deal, reference quality speakers. And a freestanding home where I don't have to fret about my neighbors .

A little off topic, but man, that is one amazingly beautiful audio rack you built yourself for your living room. I am way impressed. I'm planning to build myself a rack/console, but I doubt it's going to be that sweet. Did you design it yourself?

[neekomax]

neekomax - If a scenario like this seems to work, then something is terribly wrong to begin with. Barring the electronics, which is unlikely to be the issue, I would first point my finger at the loudspeaker/room interface.

For starters, move the right speaker away from the wall. This means you have to kick the Def Techs aside. Those speakers need to be at least 18" from any room boundaries. Why do I say kick the Def Techs to the curb? Because I am biased towards the B&W is all.    

Either way, pick a speaker pair and stick with them, then optimize the set up. Take a look at some of the galleries here at AC for visuals, and keep posting and asking questions, that what audio boards are for.

I hear you on the apparent no-no-ness of this whole thing. But I gotta say, I have a very tough room with a huge dead spot right in the middle, french doors, bay window, odd angles, etc. I've done a lot of moving furniture around the last two months, and I've found a good listening position, and, without having gotten to treatments, I'm pretty sure 'it is what it is' for the moment. And what it is is not too bad, actually.

It doesn't look like it, but the right B&W is about 14" from that wall. It's the best I can do.

I agree that I don't need to double up on the speakers, but I swear it sounds A LOT better this way. At least for today. You're probably thinking I have poor ears, but I think they're pretty good; I got paid to sing in bands for 8 years, and did a lot of mixing and critical listening in studios (my former career).

One thing I would point out is that no acoustical engineer who designed either of these speakers to perform well in this room specifically. Why wouldn't this work better if it sounds better to me? If the freq responses are complementary, all the better, no? It's not a 'wall of sound', these are two very different speakers that excel at different things.

[srb]

A little off topic, but man, that is one amazingly beautiful audio rack you built yourself for your living room. I am way impressed. I'm planning to build myself a rack/console, but I doubt it's going to be that sweet. Did you design it yourself?

Yes, here are some details:  http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=63111.msg687778#msg687778
 
You might want to read the whole topic as there are some other nice DIY designs in there.  Mine, like many of them, was more about wood finishing and mechanical parts and assembly, than great woodworking skills, which would be more of a requisite for an enclosed cabinet with doors.
 
Steve

[neekomax]

I'm not going to give any advice on audio systems, I've made too many mistakes over the years!  Also, learning about audio is a lot of fun and the journey should be a fun discovery as you learn what you like and what you dislike. You will hear really expensive systems that sound bad to you, and modest ones that are well thought out that sound great. You should see if your city has an audio club or audiophile club. Also, local get-togethers are a great opportunity to audition new gear and hear other peoe's systems, without having to shell out cash and find out you bought a system you hate.

The last thing I will suggest is to take your time. Put some thought into your system and make sure your components work well together, and keep in mind the importance if your room. A system that sounds good in a room with treatments and carpeting might sound bad in a lively room with lots of reflective surfaces. 

Thanks jackman, I appreciate the encouragement. Experimenting is fun, especially with stuff I already own 

[tesseract]

One thing I would point out is that no acoustical engineer who designed either of these speakers to perform well in this room specifically. Why wouldn't this work better if it sounds better to me? If the freq responses are complementary, all the better, no? It's not a 'wall of sound', these are two very different speakers that excel at different things.

The idea that one speaker is complementing the other by pushing frequencies the other is not, is not as likely as both speakers summed response creating huge peaks and nulls. I would bet money that if you measured, you'd find out that your system is anything but flat. It would be akin to playing with a graphic EQ, it sounds cool at first, but wears thin over time. It's kind of like making a meal, if you cooked it yourself, it usually tastes better to you, even if others do not agree.   

If you are trying to say it is more accurate this way, I take exception. If it sounds better to you, that is all that matters for now. Experimentation is part of the journey.

I have learned 8 instruments and had 4 years of vocal in high school. I've played Taps at military funerals.. That's cool you have an ear for music, many folks here do. Audio knowledge is a separate matter.

[neekomax]

The idea that one speaker is complementing the other by pushing frequencies the other is not, is not as likely as both speakers summed response creating huge peaks and nulls. I would bet money that if you measured, you'd find out that your system is anything but flat. It would be akin to playing with a graphic EQ, it sounds cool at first, but wears thin over time. It's kind of like making a meal, if you cooked it yourself, it usually tastes better to you, even if others do not agree.   

If you are trying to say it is more accurate this way, I take exception. If it sounds better to you, that is all that matters for now. Experimentation is part of the journey.

I have learned 8 instruments and had 4 years of vocal in high school. That's cool you have an ear for music, many folks here do. Audio knowledge is a separate matter.

Didn't mean to come off sounding holier than thou referencing my music career; I realize there are a lot of smart and talented people in this milieu, apparently yourself included. It was just to say that I'm not deaf to acoustic nuance and sound frequency variations. But I am new to this, and you're right, hifi is its own thing altogether. Although I'm probably still in mid-fi land, from the looks of it  .

How would one go about measuring frequency response from one's listening position? Is that even possible? Not that I'm going to do it, just wondering. As you say, it's listening impressions that are paramount.

I only have one friend who's into hifi, and he lives in Thailand now, so it's going to be a while before I can get a quality second opinion on how this sounds. Oh well. By then, I'll probably have changed my setup four times.

[tesseract]

Didn't mean to come off sounding holier than thou referencing my music career; I realize there are a lot of smart and talented people in this milieu, apparently yourself included. It was just to say that I'm not deaf to acoustic nuance and sound frequency variations. But I am new to this, and you're right, hifi is its own thing altogether. Although I'm probably still in mid-fi land, from the looks of it  .

You can get plenty good sound with what you have now, it just takes a little education and time.

How would one go about measuring frequency response from one's listening position? Is that even possible? Not that I'm going to do it, just wondering. As you say, it's listening impressions that are paramount.

The most commonly used methods to measure are:

- Test tone CD and SPL meter
- Room Equalization Wizard freeware and the necessary hardware (mic, pre, sound card, SPL meter)
- Dayton Audio OmniMic
- XTZ Room Analyzer

I only have one friend who's into hifi, and he lives in Thailand now, so it's going to be a while before I can get a quality second opinion on how this sounds. Oh well. By then, I'll probably have changed my setup four times.

It will change, especially if you have a difficult room and are experimenting. The room can be overcome.

[neekomax]

Curious, what would you guys recommend in terms of a quality audiophile speaker for this system for around $1000 to replace my unholy jury rig? Monitors? Floorstanders? Sub? No sub?

[Phil A]

To get the most from monitors, you need good stands.  Good stands are not cheap.  A floorstander with a narrow footprint might do the trick.  You could later add a sub.  To get the best bang for the buck either used or from a company that sells direct to customers (like some of Audio Circle's sponsors) is the best way to go.  Don't know your tastes (but given your experiement with 2 pairs playing) or how well it would work in your room but someone just listed a pair of Ohm Walsh 2s for $400.  I have 4 or 5 systems but if I had a place to put them, I'd grab them.

[tesseract]

Curious, what would you guys recommend in terms of a quality audiophile speaker for this system for around $1000 to replace my unholy jury rig? Monitors? Floorstanders? Sub? No sub?

No need to look much further than AC for that. Here's one good company for $1000 or less.
http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?board=16

I just had these in my home for audition. Sign up if you'd like to take a turn with them.
http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=67863.0

I am of the mind that all systems need at least 2 subs.

I see your name over there "viewing this board" while I am looking for these links.   

[jackman]

I'd do three things:

1.  Grab your favorite CD's, find a good audio store and spend some time listening to all of the speakers in your price range.  I know lots of people on this site are down on audio stores but they can be very helpful if you want to get an idea of what you like.  Good B&M strore are hard to find these days but they are out there.  Many sell used speakers or trade-ins and have some good deals these days.  Holm Audio, near  my home, let's you take things home for free and try them on your system.  I've auditioned lots of things this way.

2.  Try to get out to a local audio show (RMAF if you are in Denver, Capitol if you are on east cost but you just missed it, etc.) or a local audio club and listen to systems.  There are people from AC around the country that are known to have some fun get-togethers.  It's a great chance to meet interesting people, learn about audio and hear new music.  Plus, these people might have some cool used gear. 

3.  Try to audition something before you buy.  This is not always easy with speakers but it's possible.  Plus, some local shops will let you audition in your own home (the one near me does).  They may require a credit card but they won't charge you unless you damage the gear or keep it.  Lots of manufacturers have audition periods.  I'd take advantage of that  if you can.  You have to pay for shipping (which would rule out some speakers because shipping is $$$ on big ones) but it's usually worth it.  Also, some mfg's have audition speakers that work their way around the country (GR Research, etc).  This is a good way to hear speakers on your system in your home. 

These suggestions cost you a bit of time and effort but they will prevent you from making a decision you might regret.  Good luck!

[Phil A]

If you have an iPhone (or perhaps even Android) they have SPL Meter and RTA apps to help measure your room (you can download test tones for free at various sites).  I think the two Apps cost me $0.99 each (I have the RTA Lite App).

[stereocilia]

With four speakers, you could try the Hafler surround-sound trick for fun, as long as your amp doesn't mind the more-difficult load.  Connect the front speakers as usual, but run the rear speakers in a circuit between the two (+) terminals.  Only the differences between the stereo speakers will play through the rear speakers.

Amp's Right channel (+) --->  (+) Right Rear Speaker (-) ---> (+) Left Rear Speaker (-) ---> (+) Amp's Left Channel

[Wayner]

That is not the correct circuit for the Hafler surround sound. It is this:

 

and here is the instructions:

 

Wayner