[mamba315]

A small background first.  I bought my Late 2009 Mac Mini new a couple years ago and it has been my primary digital transport since then.  Like many, I bought it on the advice of Mr. Hider since I was running his Tranquility DAC.  Previously I was using a Dell laptop with a very stripped Nlite'd version of Win XP.  The Mini sounded good, but as I would learn, it could do better.

Over the past couple years I began turning off every single OS feature I could find that I never needed.  Anything that doesn't require custom programming to turn off or remove, I took care of.  I have other computers to use, so I could optimize this one for music.  The list of things I disabled over time is long, so lets just leave it at that.  I also tried just about every music program out there... iTunes, Cog, Play, Decibel, Pure Music, Vox, Audirvana, and Fidelia, to name a few.  Everything except Amarra, due to its price.  For the past couple months, Pure Music on the 64-bit kernel has been my primary setup.

I'd been reading some very positive things about Windows 7 for awhile though, and always wanted to do my own comparison.  I wanted to do a true A/B, which meant putting Windows 7 x64 on the Mini.  After months of curiosity, I finally got around to it.  Took a little bit of work due to the install method I chose, but I got Windows 7 x64 running and fully updated with all Window updates and Mac drivers.  Downloaded JRiver Media since that has many of the "audiophile" features I've come to enjoy on OSX (RAM playback, Exclusive Mode, etc).  Chose WASAPI for the output mode.  I wanted to get as close as possible to a "true" A/B, and things were lining up nicely.  My AIFF files were on my 1TB Oyen FW drive that was formatted on the Mac, but Win 7 had no problems reading that file system.  Queued up a playlist and then the moment of truth.  I hit play.

It sounded good.  REALLY good in fact.  Could it really be?  Ran through some Eric Clapton, George Winston, Grateful Dead, Sam Bush, and many others.  The more I played, the more convinced I became.  This was something special, and everything I played had a level of expressiveness that I'd never experience under OSX.  Dynamics, whether large or small, were much more readily apparent and felt.  Resolution was better, highs more clear and less grainy, and bass much better defined.  In short, I cannot find a single area that was not markedly better.  It was a larger difference than I thought possible from an OS changeover.  And this was out of the box, untweaked, untapped.  There are still dozens of background services running that I don't need, haven't even tried WASAPI Event Style yet, and there are lots of other OS tweaks that I've read about that I will be trying in the upcoming months.  In short, I'm just getting started, and I can't wait to see how far THIS rabbit hole goes.

Just one man's experience, and one mans system.  The usual disclaimers apply.  I will still be using OSX for daily computer usage and sometimes music too.  I'm not posting this to ruffle feathers.  I've been using Apple computers since I was 6 or 7, and PC's since high school.  Besides my dual boot OSX/Win7 Mini, I also have a couple other dual boot XP/Ubuntu machines for other purposes.  I use whatever works, and I enjoy breaking and fixing and tweaking computers in general.  I'm just excited that I found something that will take my existing setup to another level, and thought others might be interested as well.

[srb]

What an interesting and thoughtful post.  As you are predominately an OSX user, but also a Windows user as well, it is refreshing to see objectivity that is devoid of Apple cheerleading and Windows bashing that is so often encountered.
 
Looking forward to your ongoing discoveries and subsequent posts.
 
Steve

[TrungT]

Thanks for sharing.
Look forward to read more of your finding.
 

[dB Cooper]

I have very meager experience with Linux, but apparently it is possible to turn off lots of things in that too; wonder if similar experimentation might bear similar fruit there as well?

[gary]

I use a 2009 Macbook Pro for my source, and foobar + wasapi + fidelizer sounds significantly better than anything I have tried in Mac OS.

gary

[Rocket_Ronny]

Thanks for sharing Mamba.

One thing you may want to try is to the same player you are currently using on the Mac OS, if a version is available. Just to make sure what you are hearing is the player or the OS. Maybe you have already and I missed that in your comments.

Rocket_Ronny

[mamba315]

Wanted to reply to a couple things.  First off, Linux can be used for audio too and it's very modular in design.  You could theoretically disable many of the features, and probably gain better sound.  But I think there is something more going on here than simply how many services each respective OS is running.  I stripped OSX down as far as I could, including disabling features that a "normal" user never would for security reasons.  Still, Windows 7 was better out of the box, with (literally) dozens of unneeded services running in the background.  How?  Not 100% sure, but the USB audio drivers could be a major reason.  My very stripped Windows XP wasn't anything special soundwise, and I know that they completely rewrote the USB audio drivers for Windows 7.  I'm not the only one reporting significant increases in SQ.

Regarding player software, I'm not really aware of any software available for both OSX and Windows 7.  But like I said, I tried almost everything on OSX, and though some players were better than others, nothing comes close to what Win 7 and JRiver produce.  JRiver is not necessarily a "minimalistic" player either.  I will also be exploring Foobar and XXhighend now that I'm running Win7.  XXhighend is a tweakers delight and the XXHE forums contain a lot of good info on both the software and Windows 7 in general.  Most of those guys have skills that go way beyond mine and I look forward to testing some of their ideas.

There are some good guides to "minimalizing" Windows 7, and last night I probably disabled at least 30 background services not necessary for audio.  I can't tell you how good things are sounding right now.  Pretty incredible and very highly recommended for anyone chasing high fidelity on their computer.

Long term, I want to take Windows 7 as far as possible.  I don't need it for anything except audio playback right now, so I might as well see how good it can be.  This means finding the best playback software, turning off as many background services as possible, and trying some of the OS tweaks that I read about on the XXHE forum.  Also, there is another idea in the back of my head that involves a program called RT Seven Lite.  This allows you to take your Windows 7 image and strip out all the features you don't need, and rebuild a much smaller and lighter OS install.  What good is that?  Well besides the small conveniences like fasting booting times and better sound quality, it might make something else possible.  You could theoretically have the OS stored on a regular hard drive and then loaded into RAM memory during the bootup process.  That's right, the entire OS loaded into RAM.  The speed improvements alone are said to be astonishing from those who have done this with other OS's, but I'm just wondering how it'd sound.

Matan Arazi look it even further on his 3-box custom computer transport that Magico uses for their show demos.  From this awesome interview:

http://www.ultraaudio.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=135:matan-arazi-on-music-servers&catid=31:general&Itemid=46

"We continued the development, adapting the playback software to a custom real-time operating system that was designed by software engineers who developed the operating-system software for the B2 Stealth Bomber, and who built massive data-storage systems for Boeing, Goldman Sachs, and many others. This allowed us to rewrite the lowest layers of the operating system, including the PCI bus drivers, the audio path, and the scheduler logic, in order to optimize for sound quality and avoid the overhead and electromagnetic noise that traditional operating systems like Windows or Mac OS X impose on the digital audio interface. Our real-time, low-latency memory-playback software is embedded in firmware, takes up less than 8 megabytes (including the operating system!), and runs completely within the onboard cache of an ultra-low-power CPU."

Has a custom OS running off the of CPU's onboard cache!  Doesn't get any better than that, and I'll bet it sounds good!  But it's not available for sale and not likely to be affordable in any case.  So I'm stuck with my small dreams, but at least I'm heading in the right direction.

[mamba315]

One good thing leads to another; that seems to be the theme of my week audio-wise.

Like I mentioned in the beginning, JRiver was the first audio player I tried.  I used it for awhile and got to know my way around, but I didn't fall in love with the way it works and found myself wishing for something much simpler and more minimalistic, like Audirvana or Vox.  From a usability perspective, I like the minimalistic drag-and-drop type music player.  I have my music neatly organized in folders and I know my way around my music collection very well, so I tend to dislike music players that create a music library for you.  I only used Pure Music for the sound quality, but personally I always found the iTunes integration to be more of a bother than anything else.  So it was with Jriver as well, so I kept looking.

XXhighend had a reputation as being one of the best sounding programs players so I downloaded the trial and gave it a whirl.  It was like trying to decipher another language at first.  It took awhile before I could even figure out how to load tracks and get playback.  But I kept at it and soon learned my way around as well.  Tested kernel streaming vs Wasapi (Engine #3 and #4) and adjusted the Q1 settings and the other buffer size and began to hone in on a good sound.  Tested the Unattented Mode as well which was interesting.  Make no mistake, XXHE has very high SQ and is noticeably better than JRiver, but it kept coming back to interface.  Peter is a great guy and a real audio mind, but I didn't look forward to using the program despite the very very good sound.  All I can say is that everyone going down this road should try it for themselves.

Reading on the Discless Circle I ran across some pretty glowing reports of another program called Jplay.  Designed using minimalistic principles for the highest possible sound quality, yadda yadda.  These things matter to me but I'm always a little skeptical of claims.  A player won't necessarily sound the best just because it's minimalistic, as there are many things beyond a normal software player that affect the sound.  But the more I read, the more interested I became.  Load tracks or entire albums (or multiple albums) into RAM, check.  That's common enough.  If you have a multi-core processor, which my Mac Mini does, Jplay has DedicatedCore mode which reserves one core strictly for audio playback.  The software is written to have the highest possible priority under Window, which can only help.  There's a couple other features that do influence SQ and will have to be tested to everyone to see how it works on your system.  Plus Overdrive + Hibernation modes, which promised sound quality far beyond what most people ever heard from their computer by shutting down all non-audio OS processes altogether.  Now, I've used a few players here and there, but I haven't seen anything that went THAT far.  Oh, and my favorite part... no GUI and very very lightweight.  250kb of pure code.  No pesky resource hogging image files here.  Must be a pain to use, right?

Actually, no.  In fact, once you learn your way around, its easier to use than most other audio players out there.  Go to the music file you want to play, right-click Copy them, open the music player and hit the space bar.  That's it.  The track you've copied will all load into RAM and playback will begin after that.  You toggle the various options by pressing a key to enable the feature and pressing the key again to disable the feature.  So, while it works completely differently than any other audio player I've ever used, once you learn the system it's very fast and very easy to use.  In fact, despite its unconventional ways, I look forward to using it.

And how's it sound?  In a word, stunning.  As in, I didn't think my stock Mini could ever sound this good.  I thought I'd need to go to batteries and SSD's and huge amounts of RAM to get sound this clear, but it turns out I just needed different software.  Of course, all those other mods will still make a difference, but right now it seems a little superfluous.  It feels like I can hear the entire recording perfectly clear for the first time ever on this system.  No detail is too quiet to emerge from the darkness unscathed, and make sure to be sitting down if you put on a dynamic track because it'll hit like no other player I've ever used.  All this with a sense of ease, somehow.  It's magic really.  At least that's how it feels.

Well, some people have trouble paying money for any player, especially one with no GUI!  Well, I guess that's a decision that every man must make for himself.  But at 99 Euro, this still seems like a raging audio bargain.  If somebody with a computer told me they were interested in improving the quality of their music, there's no doubt I'd recommend Windows 7 and Jplay as the very first step.  On my system the difference was so pronounced, even over other "audiophile" Win7 and OSX players, that I don't think you'd need "golden ears" or 4-figure equipment to hear it for yourself.  In fact, I am convincing my brother to reload Win 7 on his computer and test this player out with his ancient Audigy soundcard.  His system doesn't cost much and I think it's the perfect test bed for this theory of mine.  He already uses uLilith and XXHE on his computer.  So we'll see.

Couple other notes:  I read on the Jplay forums that the Multimedia and Audio drivers don't need to be running if using Jplay in Kernel Streaming mode, since KS is built into the OS itself.  Sweet!  That eliminated 3 more services right there.  I now have only 22 background services running now, while the stock Win 7 probably has over 50?  I didn't count but that seems about right.  I'd highly recommended that anyone chasing max SQ on Win 7 disable as many non-audio services as they can.  It really does clean up the sound.

And that Hibernation mode?  It's really something.  It's extreme, and that's why I like it.  I dont use it most of the time, since I am often USING my computer while listening to music.  But for those late night, complete darkness, just-let-the-music-run type sessions, there's nothing better.  It's nice to have it as an option.

Bottom line: tweaked Win 7 + Jplay =   

[Jon L]

Bottom line: tweaked Win 7 + Jplay =   

What about making playlists?  Does Jpay support any way of storing your favorite songs into different playlists, like my Foobar does? 

[firedog]

Interesting post.

I've used Jplay - it certainly improves the sound of Windows PCs, especially if you run it in it's most extreme setting, "hibernation" mode - which shuts down everything in Windows except for what's necessary for playing music. Literally - in that mode you can't even access your PC till the music stops playing - no display, no keyboard. It's sound was very good, but a little "stark" to me. And JPlay is a little bit like going back to using a CD deck: pick music, play it, when it's over load some more music.

Yes, there are stripped down Linux implementations done just for audio and they do improve the sound. See Auraliti or Sonore/Vortexbox.


Chris over at ComputerAudiophile has made a list of W7 processes that can be shut down on a music server without compromising the stability of the PC. Search there and you'll find it.

[shadowlight]

Couple other notes:  I read on the Jplay forums that the Multimedia and Audio drivers don't need to be running if using Jplay in Kernel Streaming mode, since KS is built into the OS itself.  Sweet!  That eliminated 3 more services right there.  I now have only 22 background services running now, while the stock Win 7 probably has over 50?  I didn't count but that seems about right.  I'd highly recommended that anyone chasing max SQ on Win 7 disable as many non-audio services as they can.  It really does clean up the sound.

Mamba,

Would you be willing to list out the 22 services that are required?

TIA

[Rocket_Ronny]

One of the biggest reasons for using computer audio, besides the convenience, is the ability to digitally e.q. your system. Digital e.q. is sonically excellent when used within reason.

If you have a bass hump that bugs you, or the treble is just a bit too bright, don't flip gear looking for the majic combination, just e.q.. That simple little tool can save one thousands of dollars and the sonic benefits should FAR outweigh most improvements software changes would do. Or at least that is my theory as I have not tried all sorts of software. So for me, I must have a good e.q. and playlists.

Rocket_a bit of a peak at 5 khz_Ronny

[mamba315]

What about making playlists?  Does Jpay support any way of storing your favorite songs into different playlists, like my Foobar does?

This was discussed in this thread on the Jplay forum.  Quoting from there

So you would like to be able to load playlist files in jplay?
That's easy:
1. put jplay.exe e.g. on desktop and start it up
2. use e.g. Foobar to create a playlist and save it in m3u format e.g. test.m3u
3. right-click test.m3u and do Open With->Choose default program->Browse
4. select c:\users\yourname\Desktop\jplay.exe
5. select 'Use as default'
 
from now on when you double-click m3u file it will automatically be passed to jplay…
is this easier then 'L' and SPACE?
 
and if you _don't_ want to have jplay as default handler for m3u files simply omit step 5 i.e. de-select 'Use as default'
when right-clicking m3u file you should be able to select jplay under Open With…

[mamba315]

It's sound was very good, but a little "stark" to me. And JPlay is a little bit like going back to using a CD deck: pick music, play it, when it's over load some more music.

I believe the "stark" sound is a result of having a much lower level of computer noise during playback ("blacker blacks" which tends to provide a less homogenized sound).  In other words, I believe it is musically correct and directly correlated with higher SQ.  But everyone should judge for themselves, I reckon.

Regarding the comparison to a CD deck, I would agree to an extent.  And like I said above, I prefer this type of player where every session you must choose what to listen to, but that is a personal preference of mine that not everyone shares.  But you still have one advantage of computer playback, which is hundreds of albums stored on a physically small hard drive and all available instantly via computer interface.  Also, it's not limited to one album at a time.  Win 7 takes about 500mb of RAM currently, and I have 4GB today.  I could allocate Jplay to have 3GB of that, which would be enough to load 3-4 uncompressed AIFF albums at once.  It all depends how much free RAM is available on your machine.

[mamba315]

Regarding services, the Black Viper website is a great resource for finding out what they do and what can be disabled.

Here is a direct link on disabling Window 7 Services
And here is another on so called "Super Tweaks"

Today I count only 20 Services running.  Last night when I posted I was using more programs so its possible something else got turned on that wasn't necessary for audio playback.  Before I make the list of what I have running, I must reiterate that I have disabled almost all security "features" of Windows 7 and this may not be wise for someone with this as their only machine.  But it works great for a dedicated music server with a hardwired network connection (WiFi is disabled).

Cryptographic Services
DCOM Server Process Launcher
DHCP Client
DNS Client
Group Policy Client
Network Connections ***
Network Location Awareness ***
Network Store Interface Service ***
Plug and Play
Power
Remote Procedure Call (RPC)
RPC Endpoint Manager
Shell Hardware Detection
Task Scheduler
User Profile Service
Windows Driver Foundation - User-mode Driver Framework
Windows Event Log

*** Needed for network connectivity, could be disabled otherwise

Note that I have other Services that may be on Manual mode and Windows could start them if necessary.  I didn't disable all Services not listed here.  They're simply not running at the moment and Jplay is working great.  Also, if you are NOT using kernel streaming, you may need 3 other services for audio playback (Windows Audio, Window Audio Endpoint Builder, and possibly Multimedia Class Scheduler).

As always, mod your OS at your own risk.  Do your research because I'm not taking responsibility for anything 

Rocket_Ronny, I've used EQ on every speaker I've owned and every headphone as well.  I'm definitely sympathetic to this and my current speakers are 2-3 db too hot in the 8-12Khz range.  However, with Jplay this seems to bother me much less than usual.  Don't know why, and it could change, but for now I'm not missing EQ.  However, I agree that this is a major advantage to computer audio and Jplay doesn't offer this feature.  See above post on playlists.

[shadowlight]

Thanks for the information.  Will start tweaking

[JohnR]

Um... why is the Apple Core hosting a thread about how to configure Windows?

[mamba315]

The hardware is Apple but it now runs OSX and Windows.  Regardless, if it's more appropriate I can direct any future comments on Windows 7 to another thread in the Discless Circle.

If any other OSX users do their own comparison on their own system, I'd be interested in the results.  My DAC is USB, so I'm wondering is the SQ improvement would also be apparent on Toslink or FireWire DACs.

[enyonam]

 mamba,

how does your mini respond to j-play in hibernation mode regarding cpu temperature and fan activity. And is the powersupply able to give full power constantly? I`d like to know for determing which Paul Hynes powersupply will suit my (soon to arrive) mini. Btw. thanks for this thread, it inspired me a lot which route to take on cp audio. 

[kyrill]

Hi Mamba I always wondered if windows 7 plus Jplay would equal or better the mac in music reproduction, but now I think you answered it.
To my horror I discovered that I could hear a subtle but important difference between wav en flac files.
I really listened to a whole folder of wav files of music I normally listen to in flac and I heard subtle changes, but especially in the important domain,
it was as if
1) it sounds "softer, more sweet, less electronic, more musical
2) more finest microdetails in tone, for instance subtle vibrating when first it has no vibrating
3) more overtones
4) more definitions in bass
5) more transparency
the better the recording the easier it is to hear. With 2D flat compressed electronic rock I could hear no diff at all.
There is also a drawback, some files I categorized as the best now had a sound of their own masking the music, like with cleaner glasses on I can see a fine layer of dust, which was not discernible before.

There is a new version of Jplay v.3.4 which sounds much better than the version mamba talks about and which brings the buffer to 1 sample in KS instead of the 4-8 before , even 1 in HD format. Also files are in Jplay "un-flacced" before they are put in memory, they are not what normally happens decompressed on the fly