[Yoder54]

If somebody with a computer told me they were interested in improving the quality of their music, there's no doubt I'd recommend Windows 7 and Jplay as the very first step. 

I respect your work/feedback, but you said that you have not tried Amarra. I purchased Amarra at RMAF at about half price, and the quality of the audio is far superior to anything I have tried in the past. Before making a total jump onto the Win7 bandwagon, you should try Amarra and make some more comparisons. They offer a free demo.

[kyrill]

I understand your opinion
But it would be an unfair comparison, like comparing a Ferrari with a top Fiat. In the latest Absolute Sound Jplay got the merits it deserves
The last version Version 4 is a jump better than the last which was distinctly better than the version Mamba is so enthusiastic about.

[rbbert]

I understand your opinion
But it would be an unfair comparison, like comparing a Ferrari with a top Fiat. In the latest Absolute Sound Jplay got the merits it deserves

Unfortunately, that series on computer audio in TAS is just horrible.  Poor and mostly non-reproducible results, and there was NO Mac involved.  I have no doubt that TAS will regret ever publishing this series of articles; in fact I wouldn't be too surprised if they wised up and didn't finish the series.

that's not to say that Jplay isn't a good music player, just that using the TAS article is a terrible recommendation.

[Crimson]

Unfortunately, that series on computer audio in TAS is just horrible.  Poor and mostly non-reproducible results, and there was NO Mac involved.......…

.................that's not to say that Jplay isn't a good music player, just that using the TAS article is a terrible recommendation.

+1

Please tread carefully, folks. Try explaining your subjective positions. 

[srb]

But it would be an unfair comparison, like comparing a Ferrari with a top Fiat. In the latest Absolute Sound Jplay got the merits it deserves

And the November 2011 issue of Stereophile chose Amarra as the Best Computer Audio Component of the year and gave it the merits it deserves.  All very subjective and doesn't carry a lot of weight.  There is no one best OS/player.
 
Steve

[rbbert]

+1

Please tread carefully, folks. Try explaining your subjective positions. 

There's just way too much (objectively) wrong with the TAS articles to explain in one post, but I think it's safe to say that anyone even a little bit familiar with computer audio will have had many listening experiences in direct contradiction to the findings published.  And as I posted, there is absolutely no experimentation or experience with Mac's reported at all.

I don't mean to imply that Jplay is not an excellent Windows music player.  My own relatively limited use of a trial version was extremely positive.

[Crimson]

Rbbert,

My comment wasn't directed at you. Thus the +1.

[kyrill]

OK OK I teased a bit
But where is there is smoke, there must be some fire...
No offence

[viggen]

FWIW, my comparison between a Macbook Pro and first a Thinkpad with XP and then a Dell with WIN7, each time the Windows machine sounds better.  Makes me wonder whether the people with Mac music servers did any serious comparisons between Mac and Windows based music servers.

[jrebman]

Makes me wonder whether
the people with Mac music servers did any serious comparisons between Mac and Windows
based music servers.

I certainly did (with XP only), highly tweaked and stripped down OS on both machines, aqvox asio driver under foobar 2000 also with kernel streaming enabled -- took a lot of work and experimenting to get tis machine sounding as good as it could get, and it was quite good.  In goes the mac mini with PM, same dac, interconnects, amps, speakers, etc., and the mini wiped the floor with the XP box.  Of course the mini was headless, so no video to deal with, but so was the xp box -- only real difference was the mini had 4 gb ram and a SSD boot drive, and the xp box 2 gigs and a 5400 rpm 160 gb drive.

I also attempted to use j river, media monkey and some other players under xp, but they siimply were not screen reader accessible, so they were useless to me.

I don't believe it's the computer, the OS, the data interface (toslink, usb, fw, etc.) or the dac -- it's all of it, and power supplies re highly variable and seems  make a huge difference.  BTW, when I got a mac book pro some months later, I tried it as well (but without the OS mods, and it was much closer to the xp box  A good healthy, linear regulated supply on the xp box may have made the contest a bit more even, but I only just upgraded the original mini to DC power too, so it would be interesting to compare them again -- unfortunately, I gave the XP box to a buddy to use for his video media player and all that work I did on tweaking the OS is lost.

Anyway, this whole audio thing is so personal and so subjective that I'm certainly not going to tell anybody that their system could be better, especially when I haven't heard it.  Face it, there are good and bad examples of windows, osx and linux based players, and some stunning ones as well, likewise for FW vs. toslink vs usb -- you just can't generalize with any of these technologies/approaches.

Bottom line, if it sounds good to you, it sounds good and there's really no need to say that somebody else's technology/system sucks because you are using something different and it works for you.  I use usb, spdif, and toslink and when properly setup, with good transmitters ad recievers they can all be sublime, which is why I'm really, really tired of people saying usb sucks, was never intended for audio etc., especially when they haven't tried but one or two (or even in some cases, zero) usb dacs, especially ones with older and new technologies.  Same goes for async vs iso sync, etc.

Ah well, think I've made my point.

-- Jim

[viggen]

Hey Jim:

I think I am guilty of over generalizing and over simplifying those who prefer Mac for music in my effort to describe a phenomenon that most people might defer to Mac based music server based on reputation rather than actual comparison.  So, I am guilty of what I am preaching against, in a manner of speaking.   

But, that aside, yes it's the total sum of the part and not just the operating system.  Perhaps the Mac Mini does sound better than the Macbook Pro?

[skunark]

Why not compare Mac OSX vs Windows 7 on the same hardware.... Any comparison otherwise, you would have to question if the difference of hardware as a factor.  It's not really a showdown a 64-bit showdown between OSes, but two computers.

You might as well run Linux too, because I know it sounds better than either Mac OSX or Windows 7... (Bryston BDP-1)

I do think you can make one generalization....if you are into computer audio, you will always be tweaking it. 

[jrebman]

As for mini vs MBP, I don't actually know as the mini has the Mach2 mods and now the DC supply from the Battery Buss, so that's not a comparison I can make as I'm not going to do the Mach2 mods to the MBP.

As well I'm most likely going to sell the MBP annd get another mini -- this one with more horsepower, but not for audio use.  Then I have another 2010 mini on the shelf in my nightstand that will do double duty for surfing, email, etc. and as a source for my headphone rig.

I do believe that the inability to run the MBP "headless" i.e. with attached video card and display, may compromise the sound, but without comparing apples to apples per se, it's really hard to say.  One thing about this computer audio thing is that almost nothing surprises me anymore -- dacs are getting better, interfaces are getting better, software is getting better and one can even make an argument that usb and fw cables are getting better (and I won't use anything but medical grade quartz glass fiber optic cables).  What was SOTA 3 years ago is still good, but better can be had, and typically at similar or lower price points.

I just got a Metrum Octave whichI haven't even heard yet (waiting for new speakers) and I'm going to use it with my Mach2 mini and either a direct toslink connection or my audiophilleo AP2, and whichever does best by the music is what I'll stick with, and right now I can't even begin to predict which solution will work best in my system

It's all good, and I'm glad the OP and you got the Win7 machines to sound so good  Sounds like you guys did better than I did with XP.  I'll probably dual boot the mini in my bedroom with win7 and run foobar/wasapi and see just how it compares, albeit in a less than super-tweaked-for-audio OSs.

-- Jim

[jrebman]

Skunnark,

Agreed on the test between on osx and win7 on the same machine.

So far my tests with linux put it somewhere else than clearly at the top of the heap.  Besides, if you have hi-res music, your dac needs to handle the maximum sample rate of your highest res files as SRC on linux is pathetically bad.

I've got a new Auraliti PK-100 (in which the programmers have wisely disabled all SRC) and I have one dac that has usb, toslink, and coax (bnc) connections (though a pretty basic usb interface) so I theoretically could do a fairly close comparison, though I won't be installing linux on either of my minis.  And it looks like I can run the pk-100 from my battery buss too, and that may give a nice performance boost as everytime I've replaced a switcher by a linear, even a cheapie, the results have been very postive.

-- Jim

[skunark]

Skunnark,

Agreed on the test between on osx and win7 on the same machine.

So far my tests with linux put it somewhere else than clearly at the top of the heap.  Besides, if you have hi-res music, your dac needs to handle the maximum sample rate of your highest res files as SRC on linux is pathetically bad.

I've got a new Auraliti PK-100 (in which the programmers have wisely disabled all SRC) and I have one dac that has usb, toslink, and coax (bnc) connections (though a pretty basic usb interface) so I theoretically could do a fairly close comparison, though I won't be installing linux on either of my minis.  And it looks like I can run the pk-100 from my battery buss too, and that may give a nice performance boost as everytime I've replaced a switcher by a linear, even a cheapie, the results have been very postive.

-- Jim

I have the Bryston BDP (close to the Auraliti, just different power supplies and output drives for BNC and AES) so that's my jab about Linux sounds better than Windows and Mac OSX, of course I can also avoid USB DACs on this route.  If you are not afraid of the command line and VI or Emacs, you can easily tweak linux to cleanly send the bits out, just read the MPD wiki or various other solutions.   

As Windows and Mac OSX tighten security or attempt to reduce BSOD, there will be less and less options for the end-user and third-party app developer to customize, so Linux probably will have a bright future.  I've noticed several posts from USB DAC owners about Snow Leopard issues, and I'm guessing the debate is on between Windows XP/7/8..

Jim

[ajzepp]

This will add very little to the discussion, and you guys are on an entirely different level than I am in terms of computers (I'm a medical guy...), but I wanted to chime in with my experience.

I had a problem with some subtle pops and clicks during playback of iTunes tracks through my (Vista) laptop. I had consulted with SRB and others on AC about moving to computer based audio, and I ended up with a usb-to-spdif adapter to run music through my TDAC from Tube Audio Design. I had grown tired of all the issues with my Squeezebox Duet, and this was a welcome alternative. Anyway, I had done a search and found that there were other people out there who were experiencing similar noises, and they attributed it to the current version of iTunes at the time.

Anyway, I had gone a few months without my system set-up (apartment bouncing), and a few weeks ago I finally got everything up and running again. There was a new version of iTunes, so I upgraded with the hope that the clicks would be gone. Sure enough, they weren't. I really didn't want to have to find another solution, cause with the "remote" app on my iPhone, this had become a really great way to play music. But these noises were starting to get really annoying. I had started to do more research again, and one thread on the Apple site I found had someone discussing the drivers for the usb ports being the culprit. I happened to have just taken delivery on a new laptop with Windows 7, so I installed iTunes, transferred my library, and fired it up.

I am not exaggerating in the least when I say the improvement was completely evident from the first twenty seconds of the first track. My Maggies had sounded good before, but all of a sudden they were just more "live" and full. I sent Steve a report on my findings, and he sent me a link with a rundown of all the improvements 7 had over Vista. This confirmed for me that I truly was hearing a nice improvement, and this was very exciting. On top of all that? No clicks or pops!

So the moral of the story is this: Even though I'm a lowly iTunes user and not experienced with all these other software programs you guys talk about, Windows 7 is a BIG improvement over Vista and an excellent means of music playback