Try again

rab1234 · « **on:** 15 Jun 2011, 01:13 pm »

Any help is appreciated. Suggestion on a good external crossover unit for B&W 801 Matrix 25th Anny LE's? The room they are in is the problem. I've tried different amps (Meridian and Velodyne sub helped alot), changed furniture, investigated room treatments (wife wants a Den). The shop I work with here suggests trying his preamp (tube hand built). Im now to trying to get more stage depth. I have a sketch and photos of the room if someone is interested. Like most money is always an issue.

Tyson · « **Reply #1 on:** 16 Jun 2011, 04:30 am »

Tubes? Yes! B&W? No. Kick those speakers to the curb and get some real high end stuff - VMPS Dynaudio, Dunlavy, Salk, Merlin, GR Research, Gedlee, etc....

rab1234 · « **Reply #2 on:** 17 Jun 2011, 01:10 pm »

Thank you, the list of speakers you offered for consideration, I have not heard but I have about read about them and the good reviews. My partial experience with decent speakers is limited to Sound Labs Pristines and Musetex sub maybe 20 years ago. They were great but where just too big for our space back then. Lately, (over the last year or so) I have become more active in trying new components. I work with a local shop and have bought and tried out several components over this time and we are now in the process of trying to make the B&W's work. My shop man brought over some tower speakers he had made with the best components which sounded great in his shop but horrible in my room (the room seemed to swallow up their sound). The B&W's have no problem filling the space with sound, it seems that now they need help with stage depth / a little thin sounding. But dont misunderstand if I have to chuck it all out and start from scratch I will and I have stated this to my man with the shop at the onset. So I either start over or try his suggestion of the new preamp and maybe work on the crossovers. He belives its the midrange that is answer to the need for more stage depth. Does the bring light to clarify my situation.

TomS · « **Reply #3 on:** 17 Jun 2011, 01:23 pm »

Quote from: rab1234 on 17 Jun 2011, 01:10 pm

Thank you, the list of speakers you offered for consideration, I have not heard but I have about read about them and the good reviews. My partial experience with decent speakers is limited to Sound Labs Pristines and Musetex sub maybe 20 years ago. They were great but where just too big for our space back then. Lately, (over the last year or so) I have become more active in trying new components. I work with a local shop and have bought and tried out several components over this time and we are now in the process of trying to make the B&W's work. My shop man brought over some tower speakers he had made with the best components which sounded great in his shop but horrible in my room (the room seemed to swallow up their sound). The B&W's have no problem filling the space with sound, it seems that now they need help with stage depth / a little thin sounding. But dont misunderstand if I have to chuck it all out and start from scratch I will and I have stated this to my man with the shop at the onset. So I either start over or try his suggestion of the new preamp and maybe work on the crossovers. He belives its the midrange that is answer to the need for more stage depth. Does the bring light to clarify my situation.

I'm not real familiar with the B&W 801's any more but there used to be some crossover improver/modifiers of the Matrix series out there. Frank Van Alstine on AC comes to mind as well as George at North Creek Audio. You might just ping them to see what they have available and what improvements you could expect.

Tom

rab1234 · « **Reply #4 on:** 17 Jun 2011, 01:51 pm »

Yes, Mr. Van Alstine's staff was good enough to email me information on the B&W crossover modifications and we verifiied (myself and my shop guy) that my crossovers have been modified correctly. I would love to try the North Creek external one but just can't affored it now. I have looked hi and low on the used market. I have tried to convince my local guy that a crossover might get the seakers where I need them (sonically). But he wants to try his preamp first. Im sure it will make a noticable difference (he has not been complely wrong yet), but as you can see I am asking other source opinions.

Thank you

Tyson · « **Reply #5 on:** 17 Jun 2011, 05:44 pm »

Well, if the room is really the problem, then room treatments would be your best option, I recommend GIK Acoustics based on what I've heard them do to a friend's room.

rab1234 · « **Reply #6 on:** 17 Jun 2011, 06:25 pm »

Yes, I'm sure treatments would help. I have done some checking and that business is all over the place. I'll post some pictures (if I can figure out how to do it) of my room in question. The photos I have here are in between media center change out. I take another tonight so you can see what it looks like now.

Tyson · « **Reply #7 on:** 17 Jun 2011, 06:40 pm »

Treatments will definitely get you more depth. Good tubed gear also gives good depth and layering. I'm a tube guy myself, so I'm biased in that direction

If you have any spare pillows or thick blankets lying around, you can put them up in your room temporarily, just to see a "little" of the improvements that real room treatments can give you. Bonus - it's free.

rab1234 · « **Reply #8 on:** 17 Jun 2011, 07:24 pm »

Indeed, you should see some of the suggestions I received from the room treatment folks

Tyson · « **Reply #9 on:** 17 Jun 2011, 07:54 pm »

Man, that wall behind the speakers is awful - need some serious treatment there. That alone will make a massive improvement. Take care of that first, and only worry about the side wall after that, if you still think something is needed. GIK has some cool "art panels" that would fit nicely on that huge wall.

richidoo · « **Reply #10 on:** 17 Jun 2011, 09:17 pm »

If depth is what you want the front wall (behind the speakers) should be hard and clear. You have a lot of clutter there at same height of tweeters which is confusing the depth illusion. You also need to move the speakers farther out into the room, away front the front wall. Then you need to address the quality of your amplification. Looks like the speakers are aimed directly at you, so you can try experimenting with the toe angle, either more outward or even more inward, although I think more outward will open up the stage width.

To address the thin tone, consider trying a speaker placement formula, such as Master Set, which you can search for info here on AC. Master set provides the most dense tone and flat freq response I have ever heard, but in my room it does lessen the illusion of depth. You might find the tonal balance is more important than depth. I go back and forth. The nice thing about Master set is that it allows the speakers to be placed relatively close to the front wall.

I would raise the 801s 6-8" to get the bass driver away from the floor for clearer bass and higher tweeter.

I would not buy any new electronics until you get the speakers dialed in right. I would treat the front corners to eliminate phase distortion from the tri corners. The quality of amplification has a big effect on imaging and depth illusion but it is minor compared to speaker placement and reflections from the tweeter.

rab1234 · « **Reply #11 on:** 17 Jun 2011, 09:28 pm »

I ready appreciate this help, all the help I get is from people trying to sell me something, I'm attaching the present set up as promised

rab1234 · « **Reply #12 on:** 17 Jun 2011, 10:34 pm »

One other item I did not mention is the midrange / tweeter assembly swivels independently.

Thanks again, I'm reading the Master set up material now.

Tyson · « **Reply #13 on:** 18 Jun 2011, 12:07 am »

Clap your hands in the room, loudly. Does your room ring? If so, then you will need some absorption. I think the best place is on the wall behind the speakers, 2nd most important is the side walls beside the speakers, and lastly the corners/seams of the room. In my experience, hard surfaces near your speakers will do more do mess up the imaging than anything.

jtwrace · « **Reply #14 on:** 18 Jun 2011, 12:10 am »

Quote from: Tyson on 18 Jun 2011, 12:07 am

Clap your hands in the room, loudly. Does your room ring? If so, then you will need some absorption. I think the best place is on the wall behind the speakers, 2nd most important is the side walls beside the speakers, and lastly the corners/seams of the room. In my experience, hard surfaces near your speakers will do more do mess up the imaging than anything.

Great advice!

rab1234 · « **Reply #15 on:** 18 Jun 2011, 02:48 am »

Yes, I've done that no real ring. I have some moving blankets to try. On the right speaker I'll tack it up from the drapes to the wall and on the back wall even on the tall amp stand - say 2' above tweeter? On the left speaker up the wall same? I'll try it tomorrow, including the Master set up. Thanks

rab1234 · « **Reply #16 on:** 19 Jun 2011, 02:04 am »

getting better, thanks for the help I appreciate it

JLM · « **Reply #17 on:** 19 Jun 2011, 03:23 am »

High WAF, low cost option: headphones.

I'm being serious.

rab1234 · « **Reply #18 on:** 20 Jul 2011, 05:25 am »

Installed 6 GIK 242 panels -

wonderful difference

Letitroll98 · « **Reply #19 on:** 20 Jul 2011, 01:53 pm »

Glad you solved the problem rab. Another testimonial that it's usually not the speakers or electronics, it's the room and positioning, both speaker and listener. Since like many you are hamstrung with positioning, room treatment is the only option. And if I might add without offending, I think your lovely home looks better with something on those walls. Now if you could just talk her into thinking some bass traps in the corners are really architectural accents.....