[Tyson]

Well, Rick sells upgrades to equipment that he modifies.  I'm sure he doesn't charge "at cost" for these services.  The markup he's charging is partly a way to pay for his time and his development of the upgrade.  That time is IP, and he's charging for it in his business.  Seems to be a bit of a double standard.  After all, if R&D time (ie, IP) were immaterial, then he shouldn't charge anything above cost for his work.

Of course, the rejoinder might be "But I have to make a living!".  That's true.  But the means of making your living is based on your own R&D and thus what you charge for your time is based on IP concepts.  Whether you tell the customers exactly what you are doing or not is immaterial. 

On the other hand, maybe Ric is comfortable shopping at stores like this:

http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=96774.0

[Ric Schultz]

Wow, now immoral and Insane....best news to date....prior to that: liar, hypocrite, whacked, steal, dishonest, unethical.....Wow, you guys can throw a punch.  And now a loaded question that has no good answer.....good one!   I don't call you names.  I have never done anything to hurt you nor would I ever.  I Love you.....and give you a big kiss and hug!  I just don't think like you.  Is this alright?  Can you forgive me?  Can you allow me to have my way/thoughts/life without judgement?

[Ric Schultz]

Tyson,
Actually I have never charged for design time.  This is one of the reasons I have never made much money.  This is changing.  Yes, I only charge for time doing the mods....never the many, many hours of R&D.  Very silly really. I am growing and will soon be more prosperous and not just give away everything for $20-$50 an hour labor plus parts.  Also, I don't believe in IP so my design time could hardly be that.  It is simply design time.  I should get paid for it.  It is just hours like any other work.

[Tyson]

But can't you see that someone else (say a speaker manufacturer) might feel the exact same way about the "design time" spent on making a first rate crossover?

[Ric Schultz]

Sure, and he probably factors in the design time in his pricing on his projects.  What has this got to do with someone who would never buy his product, but uses some of the information on his own DIY project?  It all comes down to what you value.  If you think your design is yours and yours alone and should never be used by anyone without your permission even if they don't take anything out of your coffer, then you will suffer/hurt if this "position" is ever violated.  Your very resistance to what others have "done to you" will create unhappiness in yourself and those you share your unhappiness with.  If you think your design comes from Spirit and is meant for the greater good of all then as long as you are not monetarily compromised then anyone can use your ideas and you are indeed lifted up by that fact.  The more you share, the more you have, the more you are.  This is the spiritual law.  Yes, I know, I am whacko....he he.

[Duke]

 

Wow, now immoral and Insane....best news to date....prior to that: liar, hypocrite, whacked, steal, dishonest, unethical.....Wow, you guys can throw a punch.  And now a loaded question that has no good answer.....good one!   I don't call you names.  I have never done anything to hurt you nor would I ever.  I Love you.....and give you a big kiss and hug!  I just don't think like you.  Is this alright?  Can you forgive me?  Can you allow me to have my way/thoughts/life without judgement?

Would you like to review how you earned your accolades?  First you said you were going to steal Clayton Shaw's crossover design.  Then you said your code excluded doing harm to others.  Then you said you'd also steal my crossover design and give it to your friends.  Then you said you'd never steal anyone's intellectual property to their financial detriment.  You justify all of this with a philosophy that says nobody owns things so it's not really stealing, and whine that you just have a "different perspective". 

So yes, I stand by every one of my accusations. 

It doesn't matter how you rationalize it, taking something that isn't yours, without the owner's permission, is still theft. 

[Tyson]

Sure, and he probably factors in the design time in his pricing on his projects.  What has this got to do with someone who would never buy his product, but uses some of the information on his own DIY project?  It all comes down to what you value.  If you think your design is yours and yours alone and should never be used by anyone without your permission even if they don't take anything out of your coffer, then you will suffer/hurt if this "position" is ever violated.  Your very resistance to what others have "done to you" will create unhappiness in yourself and those you share your unhappiness with.  If you think your design comes from Spirit and is meant for the greater good of all then as long as you are not monetarily compromised then anyone can use your ideas and you are indeed lifted up by that fact.  The more you share, the more you have, the more you are.  This is the spiritual law.  Yes, I know, I am whacko....he he.

You could say the same thing about anything that anyone created - a book, , or a movie, or music - is it OK for someone to pirate a CD or a book as long as "they never would have bought it anyway"?  This is the reason that IP laws exist.

[Duke]

Sure, and he probably factors in the design time in his pricing on his projects.  What has this got to do with someone who would never buy his product, but uses some of the information on his own DIY project? 

How do you know they'd never buy my product?  I have customers who are hard-core DIYers.  Not many, but some.

Anyone may use the information that I have posted publicly, as well as any information that I have given them privately.  That is all.  If they use my crossover design without my permission, they have stolen from me.   It is mine to share or mine to keep, and I choose to keep it.

Many if not most of my customers are professional musicians.  They understand intellectual property, and respect it. 

[Ric Schultz]

This is all theory here.  So all this fuss is over what I think, my point of view.  Maybe we should move this discussion to the philosophy department.  Certainly has nothing to do with speaker fun.  I have never bought a product, and then figured out its circuit and then shared it with anyone.  This is just how I feel.  Plain and simple.  I would certainly know who would buy a product and who would not.  You know your friends just as well.  Sure, if you buy a CD or movie, I feel you should not duplicate it and send it to others as this would take money out of someones pocket. 

I am a pure DIYer.  I make most everything in my system except things like the CD player and digital xover which I mod heavily. 

I am the kind of person who does not identify with my designs.  They are not mine.  They belong to spirit for the upliftement of all.  If you are the kind of person that identifys strongly (and also holds a strong fear of loss) with your design then you would naturally feel someone may be taking something from you (stealing) even if they are not taking anything out of your pocket.

Really, havn't we beaten the dead horse enuf? 

[Duke]

...if you buy a CD or movie, I feel you should not duplicate it and send it to others as this would take money out of someones pocket.

Then it is hypocritical of you to advocate stealing my crossover design, or Clayton's.  Once our stolen crossover design becomes public knowledge, money has most definitely been taken out of our pockets. 

[Tyson]

Ric,
So, you feel that if you buy a movie, you should not duplicate it and share it, but if you buy a speaker, you should duplicate it (the crossover) and share it.  Huh?

[Ric Schultz]

Wow, I just don't see how you are losing any money.  Please let me know how this works.  You said public knowledge.  Where did I say the sharing would be in the public domain?  Someone (one) could use the info for their own use and not publish or share it.  How would you lose money this way.  You would not.  By the way, I bet this happens all the time.  I am sure more than a few people have shared some info they found in a product with friends and no one loses any money.  Your probable fear is that if anyone gets your information then someone will leak it on a forum and you will end up in the poor house.  I wonder how many times this has happened?  Can you name one?  Fear is: Future Expectation Appearing to be Real.  Appearing is not real.   Someone may have already done this.  Opened up your speaker and figured out the xover parts and shared the information with a friend just to have something to talk about....for curiousity sakes alone.  Really, the odds that someone would take your xover design and take the same speaker drivers and make a clone of your speaker and start selling it are about a trillion to one......believe it or not.  Speaker designers hardly ever use anyone elses design.  Have you noticed this?  I don't want to live in fear.  I trust the universe....however, I tie up my camel.  I mean the speaker market is flooded with speakers and new speakers all the time.  Why would anyone clone someone elses speaker?  The only way to stand out is to make a new speaker that blows away everything in its price range or offers something that others don't for the money.  I guess you think the Chinese will get a hold of your xover design and make your speaker with counterfit parts and sell them on ebay for a dime?  I think the Chinese have better/easier things to clone.

Tyson.....there is no lose from the manufactuer if a DIYer makes a clone.....if this same DIYer would have never bought the product....cannot afford it or always makes their own stuff.  There is a lose if you make a copy of a CD and send it to someone.  They can afford to buy the CD.....yes, they can....and should.  You cannot DIY a CD.  Different game. 

We can debate all day.   I say time to move on!

[Tyson]

Ric, I'm sorry, you are just wrong about that.  For example, if someone were to buy a Sonus Faber Amati Homage, create cut sheets for it, precisely copy the cabinet, drivers, and crossover, and share that information on how to make a clone for 1/10th of the price, and I was considering buying an Amati, but I see that I can pay someone to build it for much cheaper, then Sonus Faber does, in fact, lose money.  You, or your friends might not be able to afford an Amati, so you feel that building a copy is OK, but others (say, me), that might be able to afford it, will not buy it if a much cheaper alternative exists.  It is in this way that money is lost to Sonus Faber (or whoever).  How can you not see that?

[Duke]

Wow, I just don't see how you are losing any money.  Please let me know how this works.  You said public knowledge.  Where did I say the sharing would be in the public domain?  Someone (one) could use the info for their own use and not publish or share it.  How would you lose money this way.  You would not.  By the way, I bet this happens all the time.  I am sure more than a few people have shared some info they found in a product with friends and no one loses any money.  Your probable fear is that if anyone gets your information then someone will leak it on a forum and you will end up in the poor house.  I wonder how many times this has happened?  Can you name one?  Fear is: Future Expectation Appearing to be Real.  Appearing is not real.   Someone may have already done this.  Opened up your speaker and figured out the xover parts and shared the information with a friend just to have something to talk about....for curiousity sakes alone.  Really, the odds that someone would take your xover design and take the same speaker drivers and make a clone of your speaker and start selling it are about a trillion to one......believe it or not.  Speaker designers hardly ever use anyone elses design.  Have you noticed this?  I don't want to live in fear.  I trust the universe....however, I tie up my camel.  I mean the speaker market is flooded with speakers and new speakers all the time.  Why would anyone clone someone elses speaker?  The only way to stand out is to make a new speaker that blows away everything in its price range or offers something that others don't for the money.  I guess you think the Chinese will get a hold of your xover design and make your speaker with counterfit parts and sell them on ebay for a dime? 

Once a design is "shared" (especially without permission), it can and will be "shared" again, so it is in the public domain.  My competitors can see things I'm doing in my crossover that they haven't thought of yet.  The value of my design is lessened in the public perception when anybody with access to a soldering iron and a table saw or woodworker can clone my design.

I have had people try to buy my speakers for the obvious purpose of cloning them in Asia, and I have refused. 

So you tie up your camel, but you would use mine to your heart's content because you and your friends would like to have its use without paying for it? 

[Ric Schultz]

Tyson,
Nice fantasy.  Someone buying an expensive speaker and putting all the information on the web so everyone can get it cheaper to the financial lose of the speaker company......show me where this has happened......even once.

Duke,
Yes, I would not send a speaker or anything to China.  Yes, they could clone it.  That is a Camel to tie up.  Over here....sharing with a friend....well...not the same situation.  Your fears will fortunetely never be realized.  ("Can and will be shared"....yes, that is your fear).  I am not stealing your information.  I will never have any of your products here.  So, me and my friends will never "steal" anything from you.  Please sleep well tonight....you are safe.

Can anyone even name a single incident where this kind of "stealing" (sharing some info with a friend that you trust would not share the info with anyone else) has resulted in anyone ever losing a cent.....except for maybe some recent Chinese clones.  Please let me know why you have these fears.....show me some examples.   Remember, this is something I have not ever done.  I just don't believe in IP. 

[Duke]

Tyson,
Nice fantasy.  Someone buying an expensive speaker and putting all the information on the web so everyone can get it cheaper to the financial lose of the speaker company......show me where this has happened......even once.

Google "Proac 2.5 clone".  This is one I just happen to know of.

I am not stealing your information.  I will never have any of your products here.  So, me and my friends will never "steal" anything from you.

You are advocating and rationalizing and justifying stealing from me, and from every other designer out there who considers his creations to be his property, and using your own emotion-based religion as your justification. 

[Tyson]

Sigh, I give up.

[Ric Schultz]

Yes, there have always been some "DIY clones" out there (including Watt Clones).  However, none of these clones uses the same exact original modified drivers, xover parts, etc.  And they are all DIY projects...made by people who do not or can not spend the money on the finished product.  Show me a real statistic that proves that any one of these DIYers who made the DIY clones, that took them tons of hours to finish, would have bought the real deal....This example is 7 years old on a very simple two way $3,000 speaker that someone had published info on the web on.

Show me an example where a friend told a trusted friend something and it cost the manufacturer one cent.  Please. 

[Duke]

Yes, there have always been some "DIY clones" out there (including Watt Clones).  However, none of these clones uses the same exact original modified drivers, xover parts, etc.  And they are all DIY projects...made by people who do not or can not spend the money on the finished product.  Show me a real statistic that proves that any one of these DIYers who made the DIY clones, that took them tons of hours to finish, would have bought the real deal....This example is 7 years old on a very simple two way $3,000 speaker that someone had published info on the web on.

Show me an example where a friend told a trusted friend something and it cost the manufacturer one cent.  Please.

Of course you discount my example.  To do otherwise would be to admit you're mistaken.  I'm not going to spend my time trying to find an example that meets your approval.

Whether or not you think my concerns are valid, you do not have the right to make that decision for me and steal my design. 

Understand??

[mcgsxr]

Feels to me like we have wandered pretty far off the original intent of the thread, any more and I might look to get some pruning done, to get us back on track.

I am not going to involve myself in the discussion, but I am going to ask that folks take it elsewhere, should they feel compelled to continue.

Thanks!