Lost the magic with a den re-configuration. Any insight?

Gopher · « **Reply #20 on:** 23 May 2011, 06:02 pm »

I just got a promising tip from Gerrit at Zu. He took a look at my pictures and said for those dimensions I need way more toe. I shouldn't be afraid to aim at my chest as the point or even in front of me. He is going to consult with my speaker's designer (Sean Casey) when he gets back from lunch and will give me further feedback then.

I'm optimistic as I've been shooting for a point a foot or two behind me with the toe based on everything I've read. This may be what I need.

roscoeiii · « **Reply #21 on:** 23 May 2011, 06:20 pm »

Let us know how that toe-in works Fred. I believe that I have also heard that this expands the sweet spot a little more (or at least gives better sound outside the sweet spot).

And if bass is part of the concern, I like the idea of those risers recommended earlier in the thread. Seems like they'd function a bit like the bases for the Essences. And you should be able to find them in a store with a good return policy.

Gopher · « **Reply #22 on:** 23 May 2011, 09:42 pm »

Will do, Roscoe. I'm optimistic now. Sean Casey suggests I try tweaking around with a single speaker at a time. I'm not sure I'd be able to fix things that way as my soundstage depth collapsed in this configuration, but I'll try to 'use the force' and see what I come up with.

I picked up a pair of those risers from Amazon. With free prime shipping and a very lax return policy, I'll see what they can do. I always felt the Souls were a little low, this may help though now that I'm thinking about it, I suspect I'm going to have a problem with it fitting next to my mono block amplifiers (i.e. theres NO space in that corner between left speaker and amps...) I suspect this may be a welcome addition for my neighbors downstairs.

Gopher · « **Reply #23 on:** 24 May 2011, 04:21 pm »

I made a lot of progress with the extreme toe in last night. I'd say I'm 90% of the way back to where I was with a room that is far more functional, looks better and has my audio cables concealed. I'm hoping the Gramma stand will be the magic bullet that brings everything together (until I get a dedicated room to tweak). The only problem being that my room looks pretty good and I'm sure those bases (15x23) will be fugly under my small foot print (12x12) speakers.

Thanks guys. I'm not quite there, but I'll keep you all posted on how things are coming. I'm also open to feedback/suggestions.

jtwrace · « **Reply #24 on:** 24 May 2011, 04:23 pm »

What about using REW or HolmImpulse and seeing what you have?

Gopher · « **Reply #25 on:** 24 May 2011, 04:53 pm »

great idea in theory, but those graphs and measurements mean nothing to me. I really don't have a basic understanding of that stuff at all.

rollo · « **Reply #26 on:** 24 May 2011, 06:22 pm »

Gopher toing in like that creates more of a nearfield solution which eliminates most of the room as you well know. If you have access to the Sheffield/XLO breakin disc or an out of phase signal it makes life much easier to achieve the proper balance. I can mail you my copy if you like.
Very affective in that the out of phase signal sounds like it is coming from all around the room equally with no leaning to any particular location. So all one needs to do is adjust one speakers toe in or spacing to achieve the best result. let me know.

charles

Gopher · « **Reply #27 on:** 24 May 2011, 07:18 pm »

Charles,

Thanks so much for your input--I actually have a phase button on my DAC I have never played with. Could you expand slightly on how I'd use the more diffuse sound field to tweak each individual speaker?

jtwrace · « **Reply #28 on:** 24 May 2011, 07:37 pm »

Quote from: Gopher on 24 May 2011, 04:53 pm

great idea in theory, but those graphs and measurements mean nothing to me. I really don't have a basic understanding of that stuff at all.

Right. It didn't mean anything to anyone until they read about it and learned.

If you learn to collect the data there are plenty of people on this forum (and others) that will offer advice. Also, as you take measurements and play around with positioning you will start to see what effect things have.

roscoeiii · « **Reply #29 on:** 24 May 2011, 07:40 pm »

Meant to ask earlier, do you have a copy of Jim Smith's "Get Better Sound"? A great great resource for setting up a room. Jim Smith also has a regular newsletter for folks who purchased his book.

sunnydaze · « **Reply #30 on:** 24 May 2011, 08:42 pm »

Quote from: jtwrace on 24 May 2011, 07:37 pm

Right. It didn't mean anything to anyone until they read about it and learned. If you learn to collect the data there are plenty of people on this forum (and others) that will offer advice. Also, as you take measurements and play around with positioning you will start to see what effect things have.

Apart from an academic and curiousity point of view, does it really matter what all the data and fancy-schmancy charts and graphs say?

I mean really.....it's not gonna help you arrive at a solution any quicker than just moving the stuff around and listening!

I think sometimes we just get too hung up on our fancy toys and measurement devices. Often, the best solution is the simplest, cheapest, and most common sense one -- our ears!

S Clark · « **Reply #31 on:** 24 May 2011, 09:35 pm »

Quote from: roscoeiii on 24 May 2011, 07:40 pm

Meant to ask earlier, do you have a copy of Jim Smith's "Get Better Sound"? A great great resource for setting up a room. Jim Smith also has a regular newsletter for folks who purchased his book.

Just checked this out- Amazon wants $100/copy!!! for a paperback! You couldn't send us a couple of page summary, for say, five bucks?

roscoeiii · « **Reply #32 on:** 24 May 2011, 09:45 pm »

http://getbettersound.com/thebook.html

Gopher · « **Reply #33 on:** 25 May 2011, 12:10 am »

Roscoe,

I've seen the book before but I always assumed it was more geared towards those with a dedicated room to play with and move things about. If not dedicated, at least with fewer 'child safety' considerations than I'm dealing with.

You've seen my pictures and read my concerns--do you think that book would be of benefit to me? Its a modest investment compared to many tweaks...

Also, I'm curious is there another good forum/database where beginners can learn a bit more about room placement and such?

jtwrace · « **Reply #34 on:** 25 May 2011, 12:12 am »

Quote from: sunnydaze on 24 May 2011, 08:42 pm

Apart from an academic and curiousity point of view, does it really matter what all the data and fancy-schmancy charts and graphs say?

I mean really.....it's not gonna help you arrive at a solution any quicker than just moving the stuff around and listening!

I think sometimes we just get too hung up on our fancy toys and measurement devices. Often, the best solution is the simplest, cheapest, and most common sense one -- our ears!

whatever

roscoeiii · « **Reply #35 on:** 25 May 2011, 12:38 am »

Fred,

I found it to be very useful, even though my living circumstances didn't permit me to incorporate all of the suggestions that Smith makes. But there are so many little tips in there that can make a big difference. I'm currently reconfiguring my own room or I'd send you my copy. I'll give holler when I am done with it. But generally, I have found it well worth the asking price.

Gopher · « **Reply #36 on:** 25 May 2011, 12:50 am »

I appreciate you willingness to share, Roscoe! If I haven't already picked up a copy by the time you're done, I may take you up on that offer.

I'm not sure absorbtion pannels are really doable at the first reflection point given my room configuration, but I'm wondering if diffusers behind the speakers would be worthwhile (or if benefit would be mitigated by tv). What about those corner traps I see at the ceiling in some rigs?

I'm really green as far as this stuff goes, but seeing the profound difference a few degrees of toe can make, I'm curious whether my system would benefit more from lifestyle friendly room changes than gear upgrades.

JohnR · « **Reply #37 on:** 25 May 2011, 01:25 am »

Quote from: sunnydaze on 24 May 2011, 08:42 pm

Apart from an academic and curiousity point of view, does it really matter what all the data and fancy-schmancy charts and graphs say?

It saves a lot of guesswork and trial-and-error. Things that are subtle to the ear can be quite obvious in measurements.

Quote

I mean really.....it's not gonna help you arrive at a solution any quicker than just moving the stuff around and listening!

It depends on what the issues are and your approach to solving them. It's information that you can use to improve your system, that's all.

sunnydaze · « **Reply #38 on:** 25 May 2011, 04:36 am »

Quote from: JohnR on 25 May 2011, 01:25 am

It saves a lot of guesswork and trial-and-error. Things that are subtle to the ear can be quite obvious in measurements.

It depends on what the issues are and your approach to solving them. It's information that you can use to improve your system, that's all.

It tells you that you have a problem, that is all. It does not tell you how to solve it. How does any measuring device save trial and error? One still needs to move things around, and use his ears, to find a solution.

If the "problem" is so subtle to your ears (your words) such that measurements are required to reveal it (in other words, not audible), then it is not really a problem at all, now is it?

sunnydaze · « **Reply #39 on:** 25 May 2011, 04:37 am »

Quote from: jtwrace on 25 May 2011, 12:12 am

whatever

Whatever?? Quite insightful and helpful.