[JohnR]

It tells you that you have a problem, that is all.  It does not tell you how to solve it.  How does any measuring device save trial and error?   One still needs to move things around, and use his ears, to find a solution.

If the "problem" is so subtle to your ears (your words) such that measurements are required to reveal it (in other words, not audible), then it is not really a problem at all, now is it?       

I didn't say inaudible, I said subtle. Just because you can hear that something's not right, doesn't mean that you can tell what it is. More precise information can help pinpoint what the problem is much more quickly.

[jtwrace]

Whatever??  Quite insightful and helpful.       

I've offered advice but you seem to think that it's completely unnecessary.  If you think that you can dial a system in by ear, you're only fooling yourself.

JohnR has given very good advice on why it should be done. 

As an engineer, real data is everything...tuning by ear is way to objective and you never have a real picture of what it happening.  The OP asked how to fix what has happened in his room.  This is the most simple thing one can do to really understand what is happening. 

[sunnydaze]

I've offered advice but you seem to think that it's completely unnecessary.  If you think that you can dial a system in by ear, you're only fooling yourself.

JohnR has given very good advice on why it should be done. 

As an engineer, real data is everything...tuning by ear is way to objective and you never have a real picture of what it happening.  The OP asked how to fix what has happened in his room.  This is the most simple thing one can do to really understand what is happening.

I think you meant to say ear tuning is  "subjective".  My response to this is that the whole listening experience is subjective.  If it sounds good, it is good, damn the numbers!   Does it really matter what the data says?  If your setup gave an immensely satisfying listening experience yet didn't measure all that well, would you rearrange things to give better data yet a less enjoyable listen?  I don't think so!  Lovers of SET sound, with its typically high distortion figures, understand the point.

So I ask once again.....
Once you have the data that confirms that you have a problem -- something your ears are already telling you -- how does that data tell you how to zero in on things and fix it?  This is my only point, and I have not seen it addressed or answered.

And yes, I do think I can tune a system by ear.  Been doing it for years with VG results, as anyone who has heard my system will tell you.
 

[Letitroll98]

Having an argument about subjective and objective is kind of silly, but the question as it relates to the OP is kind of interesting.  Taken that we have a listener who is uninterested in investing in the expense or time involved in measurement technique, are there simple down and dirty tests one can employ in speaker placement?  I think there are.

Russell Dawkins recently proposed one on the Enclosures circle that makes a lot of sense, using a mono signal pink noise track (available on numerous test disks) adjust your toe in and spacing until the center image is a razor sharp, pinpoint image.  He likened it to sounding like the image coming from a slit in the wall, nothing diffuse.  I tried it and it was easy to employ and worked wonders.  I think it was Brian that had one using out of phase pink noise earlier in this thread.

What are your simple and easy tips for objective results? 

[bpape]

What the data can do is to potentially help you pinpoint WHERE the problem is and minimize some of the trial and error.  Of course you wouldn't set things up to measure better but sound worse - that would be silly.  You're correct in that it's all about what you like and what you hear.  That doesn't mean that with a few measurements you might not be able to make it better.

Bryan

[Gopher]

As a side note, Sunny is a real world friend of mine and DID play a role in dialing the magic into my previous configuration--particularly analog setup.  He strongly believes in going with his gut, ears and experience over reviews and empirical data and he has achieved some very good sound in a non-dedicated room with gear I hadn't even heard of until meeting him.

Leitrol,

That is very interesting and I'm going to try that tonight I think.  Do you have an mp3/flac or source for the pink noise? 

[morganc]

Fred,
    I used the Zu method as outlined in their owner's manual and found it to be amazingly helpful.  They start with one speaker in Mono and make adjustments off of that.  I actually did both speakers independently with my gf and we came to the exact same conclusion both times.  Now I have a huge soundstage with great width and depth and couldn't be happier, except for a bit too much on the top end. So I took your advice and toed mine in more than I did in the past ,a dn it sounds better already too. 

   I agree with you, life is already busy and complicated enough to learn
another computer program, hardware, etc.   But if you find a simple technique, I would love to hear about it. 

Cheers,
Morgan

[rollo]

Charles,

Thanks so much for your input--I actually have a phase button on my DAC I have never played with.  Could you expand slightly on how I'd use the more diffuse sound field to tweak each individual speaker?

  Ya need the disc. The invert polarity switch canot do what the disc does. Ya need the out of phase feed to be played while the system is in phase. Just PM me your info and I'm mailing it to you.


charles

[rollo]

  Gopher can you borrow a Berhinger EQ ? It will at least let you know the issues with the bass. Easy to use and quite affective. Personally I do not like what it does to the topend however you will learn someting. For bass correction a winner in spades.
  If all else fails maybe a sub is needed now.


charles

[JohnR]

Having an argument about subjective and objective is kind of silly,

It seems like a pretty one-sided argument to me. Objective data is useful information that can help you improve your system, I don't see why there's any need to argue about it.

But, as was famously said earlier in the thread,

whatever   

[bummrush]

I say find a dealer to come over sometime and help with setup and questions. Any good stere shops in your area ?

[jtwrace]

I say find a dealer to come over sometime and help with setup and questions. Any good stere shops in your area ?

You're more likely to not get good advice from this source.  There aren't many that really have a clue.  Sorry but it's the truth.  I can't tell you how many stores I've been into that break the standard audio room rules...and it sounds like it! 

Not to mention, what happens if the guy came over and said to measure using REW, HolmImpulse or a test disc from http://www.realtraps.com/test-cd.htm ????  Of course you'll need a real fancy schmancy one of these http://www.radioshack.com/product/index.jsp?productId=2103667&CAWELAID=107593122

Sorry Gopher but friends don't let friends listen to un-measured stereo's.   

[sunnydaze]

Sorry Gopher but friends don't let friends listen to un-measured stereo's.   

   Boo-Hoo!  I guess we can't be friends anymore, Fred!   

[Letitroll98]

Leitrol,

That is very interesting and I'm going to try that tonight I think.  Do you have an mp3/flac or source for the pink noise?

Well I just use the ones on the Stereophile Test Disk 2 & 3, but there is a download at http://www.linkwitzlab.com/burst-cd.htm that is pink noise based, there are many others if you Google 'pink noise download'.  This one's not the best for what I was suggesting as it doesn't have sustained mono pink noise by itself, only as part of a larger analysis, but a must download anyway.  Just read the article on that page for a full explanation, in fact read the entire website, you may answer all of your questions there.  I have to agree with the others that a greater understanding of room interactions would be very helpful for you.  However to answer your question in the OP I think there are several things you can do before employing measurement that may improve things, I was hoping some other might suggest something instead of yelling at you.  Perhaps as time goes by you can learn more about small room dynamics. 

Jason, John, Brian, et al, please don't mistake me for a person who doesn't measure, I can show you the, uhmmm, I think about 50 or more FR plots I've run just on my new listening room this year to assuage your fears on that point.  I agree with you that there's nothing like a measurement to uncover things that weren't obvious in just listening.  However is seems like many here are browbeating Gopher into accepting that he must make measurements or he's some kind of audio heretic.  The guy just wants some tips on room setup, since it's his thread, perhaps it might be helpful and prudent to supply some.  But maybe I'm off base. 

[JohnR]

However is seems like many here are browbeating Gopher into accepting that he must make measurements or he's some kind of audio heretic.

Well, I do think that talk of browbeating is a bit off base. It was simply a suggestion that was made.

[Gopher]

I did some more tweaking last night and I'm not sure I like what was happening.  I threw the Gramma stands underneath and got a lot more bass definition which was nice, and I didn't lose that much in terms of impact--The very shallow carpet on the gramma made the spike setting on speakers way too high though and I changed back to the floor studs and it sounded lack luster again.  Hard to describe, kind of dead. 

I'm going to try again without the Grammas tonight and with the carpet spikes again.  Also planning on trying individual channel tweaking though I'm still a bit hazy on how I'll know 'when its right'.

Charles is generously loaning me his setup tones to further experiment with, so we'll see where this sucker ends up.


Would it be a terrible idea to change amps in the middle of trying to get things right?  My wife threw a sh*t fit last night when the temperature hit 81 in my living room (845 SETs driven by 300Bs).  I'm toy with purchasing a cooler tube amp (el34 decware has my attention as does the f2a tube).  Tonight I'll probably be plugging in a rawson F3 so I can deal with heat.

[jtwrace]

Charles is generously loaning me his setup tones to further experiment with, so we'll see where this sucker ends up.

What tones are these?  What process? 

[Gopher]

The Sheffield/XLO breakin disc.

The process I'm gonna try is tonight is setting speaker position with only one playing at a time. 

[Gopher]

Very affective in that the out of phase signal sounds like it is coming from all around the room equally with no leaning to any particular location. So all one needs to do is adjust one speakers toe in or spacing to achieve the best result. let me know.

So basically I should be trying to position my speakers (one at a time) until they give the appearance of disappearing?

[jtwrace]

The Sheffield/XLO breakin disc.

The process I'm gonna try is tonight is setting speaker position with only one playing at a time.

I'd really recommend spending $50 and doing this.  It's super easy and you can plot it all in Excel if you want to be fancy. You can see here what that looks like.  http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=93878.msg938549#msg938549

free test disc from http://www.realtraps.com/test-cd.htm ????  http://www.radioshack.com/product/index.jsp?productId=2103667&CAWELAID=107593122