[Ultralight]

Greetings,

To cut a long story short.  First trip to a 'mid-fi' store blew my mind when I auditioned some Sonus Faber driven by a stack of McIntosh equipment.  I've listened to live concert for years but never thought reproduced music could sound equally pleasurable. (Apologies - as I said, I'm a newbie.)  Preferred that sound over the B&Ws and Martin Logans.   The fullness, weight, presence, warmth, musicality etc. 

So I'm looking to approximate as much of that as possible on a smaller budget, and smaller space.  Namely, I'd like to put together a system for my office with listening distance of between 3 1/2 and 5 feet.  Not a lot of distance from the speakers.

What I'd like:
1. Tube amp for the warmth.
2. Speakers that produce a sense of weight, presence, and warmth even at low listening level for long non-fatiguing listen, but without being overly tubby and to retain as much detail as possible.  Also, I'd like to have as much pinpoint imaging rather than just a wall of sound.
3. My music - acoustic classical, vocals, jazz, and the like. No rock, metal etc. 

Questions for you pros:
1. Would a full range single speaker be the best solution.  Due to the close listening distance, I'm assuming that multiple drivers won't come together to at such a close distance.

2. I see many 'full range' speakers with a tweeter.  I'm not understanding that - doesn't that make them function like a regular two driver speaker?  Or does such a set up still image well?

3. Since I'd like a sense of weight and depth at low volume, I'm told that a larger driver is ideal.  Yet at close distances, a smaller driver is supposed to give better imaging and staging.  So how do I figure this out? What size driver may be ideal?

4. Any speaker recommendations? 

My room is about 11.5 by 13 by 8 ceiling.

Thanks in advance for any help.

UL

[milford3]

I don't know your price range but two bookshelfs from AXIOM AUDIO comes to mind.
The model M2ti and the larger M3ti.  They sound like speakers three times their price.

[TerryO]

Greetings,

To cut a long story short.  First trip to a 'mid-fi' store blew my mind when I auditioned some Sonus Faber driven by a stack of McIntosh equipment.  I've listened to live concert for years but never thought reproduced music could sound like that . (Apologies - as I said, I'm a newbie.)  Preferred that sound over the B&Ws and Martin Logans.   The fullness, weight, presence, warmth, musicality etc. 

So I'm looking to approximate as much of that as possible on a smaller budget, and smaller space.  Namely, I'd like to put together a system for my office with listening distance of between 3 1/2 and 5 feet.  Not a lot of distance from the speakers.

What I'd like:
1. Tube amp for the warmth.
2. Speakers that produce a sense of weight, presence, and warmth even at low listening level for long non-fatiguing listen, but without being overly tubby and to retain as much detail as possible.  Also, I'd like to have as much pinpoint imaging rather than just a wall of sound.
3. My music - acoustic classical, vocals, jazz, and the like. No rock, metal etc. 

Questions for you pros:
1. Would a full range single speaker be the best solution.  Due to the close listening distance, I'm assuming that multiple drivers won't come together to at such a close distance.

2. I see many 'full range' speakers with a tweeter.  I'm not understanding that - doesn't that make them function like a regular two driver speaker?  Or does such a set up still image well?

3. Since I'd like a sense of weight and depth at low volume, I'm told that a larger driver is ideal.  Yet at close distances, a smaller driver is supposed to give better imaging and staging.  So how do I figure this out? What size driver may be ideal?

4. Any speaker recommendations? 

Thanks in advance for any help.

UL

UL,
Most of the assumptions you've made are pretty much on target. Tube gear can sound very nice. However, you do need to match it to the room, the speakers that are likely to be used and the type of music you listen to.

At the listening distance mentioned, you could probably get away with a speaker using a 4.5 inch driver. I'm very partial to the Planet10 Fonken designs as perhaps the best single driver all-around solution. The size of the driver is perhaps the optimum size for a single driver. It can deliver nice highs and in the right cabinet, decent lows. The mids are just great, which is what single driver solutions excel at.

Do a search for Planet10 on this forum and you should find the information needed.

Best Regards,
TerryO

[toocool4]

You say you have a small budget and are looking for a single driver small speaker. You should check out the Fujitsu Eclipse range of speakers, you can not go wrong they are amazing.

My friend uses the top of the range Eclipse TD712z Mk 2, you have to hear them to believe. I have also heard the small Eclipse TD508II wow they will blow you mind at what they can do for their size. If you can have a demo try them, I think your search will end there.

Review of the TD712z here http://www.stereophile.com/content/fujitsu-ten-eclipse-td712z-loudspeaker

http://www.musicarch.co.uk/products/Eclipse-TD508II-Time-Domain-Speaker-%28pair%29.html

[Matty_J]

Another consideration could be the Verus Grand Bookshelves from Aperion Audio...

[wushuliu]

Greetings,

To cut a long story short.  First trip to a 'mid-fi' store blew my mind when I auditioned some Sonus Faber driven by a stack of McIntosh equipment.  I've listened to live concert for years but never thought reproduced music could sound equally pleasurable. (Apologies - as I said, I'm a newbie.)  Preferred that sound over the B&Ws and Martin Logans.   The fullness, weight, presence, warmth, musicality etc. 

So I'm looking to approximate as much of that as possible on a smaller budget, and smaller space.  Namely, I'd like to put together a system for my office with listening distance of between 3 1/2 and 5 feet.  Not a lot of distance from the speakers.

What I'd like:
1. Tube amp for the warmth.
2. Speakers that produce a sense of weight, presence, and warmth even at low listening level for long non-fatiguing listen, but without being overly tubby and to retain as much detail as possible.  Also, I'd like to have as much pinpoint imaging rather than just a wall of sound.
3. My music - acoustic classical, vocals, jazz, and the like. No rock, metal etc. 

Questions for you pros:
1. Would a full range single speaker be the best solution.  Due to the close listening distance, I'm assuming that multiple drivers won't come together to at such a close distance.

2. I see many 'full range' speakers with a tweeter.  I'm not understanding that - doesn't that make them function like a regular two driver speaker?  Or does such a set up still image well?

3. Since I'd like a sense of weight and depth at low volume, I'm told that a larger driver is ideal.  Yet at close distances, a smaller driver is supposed to give better imaging and staging.  So how do I figure this out? What size driver may be ideal?

4. Any speaker recommendations? 

My room is about 11.5 by 13 by 8 ceiling.

Thanks in advance for any help.

UL

As mentioned above Planet10 designs is recommended. An Alpair 7 or CSS EL70 would be the way to go. I'm sure Dave or Chris will chime in at some point.

[sebrof]

2. I see many 'full range' speakers with a tweeter.  I'm not understanding that - doesn't that make them function like a regular two driver speaker?  Or does such a set up still image well?

The difference is that in the full rangers with tweeter, there is no crossover between the amp and the big driver, so the amp is connected directly to the driver with the speaker wire. There is only a hi-pass (AKA low block) filter between the amp and tweeter to keep the low freqs from getting to the tweeter. The big driver is run full range, whatever its range may be (almost certainly not 20 - 20K).

What I think of when you say weight is bass weight. At least one guy recommended a 4.5" driver - I'd need to be convinced (I'd need to hear for myself) that a 4.5 incher would produce satisfying weight at low volumes. But a lot of these guys have heard way more than I have.
I have 1 pair of 8" (Tekton) and 2 pairs of 10" (Tekton, Zu) all FR+Tweeter in a room about your size (no, I don't play them at the same time). I listen at a little over 6 feet from the speakers. Sound is very nice and full (weight), especially with the 10"ers. I drive them with a 2A3 SET (4 watts) or a 6L6 SE (8 watts) or an EL84 SE (2 watts). Speakers are 98db.
Hope this helps

[Pez]

Personally I think if you liked the fabers it is quite a jump to go single driver wide bandwidth.  I personally have never heard a setup sound the same as a good full range speaker. Others opinion will differ greatly from mine, but I think you need to look elsewhere if the Faber sound is what you're going for.

[jeffh]

You say you have a small budget and are looking for a single driver small speaker. You should check out the Fujitsu Eclipse range of speakers, you can not go wrong they are amazing.

My friend uses the top of the range Eclipse TD712z Mk 2, you have to hear them to believe. I have also heard the small Eclipse TD508II wow they will blow you mind at what they can do for their size. If you can have a demo try them, I think your search will end there.

Review of the TD712z here http://www.stereophile.com/content/fujitsu-ten-eclipse-td712z-loudspeaker

Those things are $7000/pair.  They should sound good.

[sebrof]

Those things are $7000/pair.  They should sound good.

Yeah, and the Sensitivity of 83.5dB/V/m scares me, too.

[toocool4]

Those things are $7000/pair.  They should sound good.

High price does not guarantee quality or that they will sound good as we all know, but in this case they do deliver.

The cheaper models are amazing too i.e. TD508II, you should try them before you make up your mind as to which speakers to settle for.

[Quiet Earth]

From my own experience I would say that you might need to be a little more flexible with your idea of "imaging" for a room that size. If you already have a system set up in that room, try spreading the speakers further apart from each other and toe them in to cross in front of you. You will still get a solid image but you will gain more distance between yourself and each speaker. This will open up your choice of speaker possibilities.

You can also think diagonally with yourself facing a room corner and each speaker sitting on a perpendicular wall, and toed in to cross just in front of you. Most people will poo poo this idea, but when you're setting up a system in a small room you have to be creative and a little flexible. If you are still dead set on the hifi kind of holographic imaging created for every recording, then you might need a bigger room. Bigger than you think.

I don't think a single driver or a coaxial speaker lets you cheat the distance. I find that I need just as much distance from my single driver speakers as I do from my two ways. Maybe even more. Depends on the design.

As for enjoying all of the music as though its turned up louder than it really is when you listen at low volume levels, well, that has more to do with the source components and the amplifier then the speakers. Single ended triode tube amplifiers are the king of the hill for this quality. Get the very best SET amplifier that you can afford and try to audition reasonably efficient speakers with it, like 92dB or greater.

If you are going to buy a single driver speaker, try to go hear one somewhere first before you buy one on faith. They do some things very, very well but they also have their own set of issues which you will discover after you live with them for a while.

Ain't nothin' perfect and there's no free lunch. 

[sts9fan]

McIntosh midfi?
Anyway it seems that single drivers could suit you well.  Are you a DIYer?  That's the big question.  Personally I feel many single driver commercial offerings are a waste of money.  A pair of Fostex or Mark Audio drivers plus a sheet of Baltic Birch and you are all set. 
I am currently listening to the new Paul Simon on a pair of Woden Dunnideers and it sounds fantastic. 

[Ultralight]

Wow!  Thanks everyone for the comments!  Much appreciate.  I'll have to sift through it again in detail when I get back later.

Quick comments on a few things that caught my attention:

1. Presence.  I'm told that even at the same decibel & frequency response, a 8" driver produces a different effect from a 4.5" driver. Some say there's not substitution for size when I want that 'presence' or weight.   Is there consensus for this?     If we go really small, there's always the JohnBlue JB3 - or does this illustrious group think that the JB3 is junk compared to other available commercial offerings?   I'm looking for something larger I think.

2. I can pair the speakers with a single sub if necessary for bass.  My sub can cross over up to 80hz.

3. Probably the most troubling thing is the comment that single driver need as much distance as conventional multi-driver system to resolve.  (Not sure if I'm using the right term.)  Is there consensus on this?  Is that a function more of a driver size - meaning the larger, the further the distance needed?

4. I've heard single driver before, albeit at much reduced scale than what we are talking about here but loved the pinpoint nature of things.   The readings on the web persuades me that this type of sound will work for me. 

Again, MUCH appreciation for all the responses.

Thanks,
UL

ps: I'm told McIntosh is Mid-Fi.  Perhaps not...  They sure were costly when we consider a whole rack of them....

[wushuliu]

Thing is with a 3-5' listening distance using 8" drivers will be like wearing giant headphones, so you're going to get some 'presence' alright! Not sure that's a good idea. As for the multi-driver 'resolve' question I think you're referring to the distance needed from multiple drivers (woofer(s), tweeter 2way, 3way, etc) in order for them to 'sum' coherently. This is a non-issue with full range.

If your listening distance is that short there is no reason to use large drivers.

[planet10]

You say you have a small budget ... check out the Fujitsu Eclipse range of speakers

I have no doubt the the F10 are pretty special, they are doing some bleeding edge stuff, but small budget & F10 in the same sentence?

dave

[toocool4]

I have no doubt the the F10 are pretty special, they are doing some bleeding edge stuff, but small budget & F10 in the same sentence?

dave

Fujitsu Ten’s Eclipse TD307II at £296 is not going to send you to the bank for a loan is it? I don’t think so.

http://www.musicarch.co.uk/products/Eclipse-TD307II-Time-Domain-Speaker-%28pair%29.html

[planet10]

1. Presence.  I'm told that even at the same decibel & frequency response, a 8" driver produces a different effect from a 4.5" driver.

Unlikely you'll get an 8 that has the same FR a a 4.5, a large driver ususly trades finese for weight/impact.

For nearfield use the smaller driver is going to do a better job than a big driver. To get weight you need to move some air -- even at low volumes (due to the ear/brains much higher sensitivity thru the midrange. Ie the bass has to tip up.



There are some select small drivers that produce bass that is very disconcerting when one looks at the size of the driver. wushuliu mentions the particular one i have in mind.

http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/full-range/164832-mar-kel70-sweden.html -- start at the end, Niklas makes quite a few comments on the performance as he explores new music.

2. I can pair the speakers with a single sub if necessary for bass.  My sub can cross over up to 80hz.

I'd start without, but if you find lack of weight, there it is.

single driver need as much distance as conventional multi-driver system to resolve.  (Not sure if I'm using the right term.)

The right term is integrate. It is more a case of the larger the physical extent of the driver(s) the further away you need to be for things to integrate (it is just simple trig. The box itself plays a role. A good example are the big double mouth horns, the large ones requiring something like 3m minimum to integrate.

With single driver speakers there is a much greater selection if you can diy.

What is your actual budget?

Given the distance you mention, will these be sitting on a desk (or firing across one)?

And which Sonus Fabers? I was quite impressed with the Ellipsa, but the ones of a size anywhere near suitable to your application were easily bested by a number of the single driver boxes living at my house (and most considerably less than the local sales tax on those particular SF)

dave

[planet10]

Fujitsu Ten’s Eclipse TD307II at £296 is not going to send you to the bank for a loan is it? I don’t think so.

Not a bad price (inclusive of VAT?), but a 2 1/2" driver with an F10 of 100 Hz likely is not going to meet the desired midbass presence.

dave

[toocool4]

Not a bad price (inclusive of VAT?), but a 2 1/2" driver with an F10 of 100 Hz likely is not going to meet the desired midbass presence.

dave

Well if you are going to use single driver speakers, you will have to accept the limitations.