Setup problem... or could it be the phonostage

drew8mc · « **on:** 28 Apr 2011, 02:43 pm »

I have a problem with my vinyl setup that I just can't figure out. On my Hifi News test record there are several 300 hz tracks on the first side that help you set up your anti skate. On side 2 there are 3 separate 300 hz tracks, one at the beginning, one in the middle, and one at the end. I get buzzing in all these tracks no matter what I change or how I adjust the alignment of my cartridge (Benz SL). I've also tried mounting my back up cartridge (Blue Point No. 2) and it buzzes just the same. On side one the buzzing is faintly there on the low level tone and gets progressively worse as they increase in level. On the second side the first two tones have some buzzing but the one nearest the spindle is awful.

This manifests itself as way overly sibilant when any "SSS" sound is sung and during loud dynamic peaks. This is a problem I've also been dealing with through two turntables and several cartridges. The only thing that's stayed the same is my phono preamp (original Musical Surroundings Phonomena). Can this problem be the phono preamp? It sure doesn't sound that way but I'm at a loss here. The promise of great vinyl sound seems to elude me and I'm getting frustrated at all the money I've spent and all the distortion I have to listen to.

Any help or advice would be greatly appreciated.
Drew

Minn Mark · « **Reply #1 on:** 28 Apr 2011, 03:12 pm »

Are you sure of the tracking force? Try it at 2 gms for either the Sumiko or the Benz. Do you have an accurate way to measure this?

Mark.

dlaloum · « **Reply #2 on:** 28 Apr 2011, 03:14 pm »

How are you checking and setting your alignment and tracking force?

neobop · « **Reply #3 on:** 28 Apr 2011, 03:16 pm »

I was just going to ask the same thing. What table and arm are you using?

neo

drew8mc · « **Reply #4 on:** 28 Apr 2011, 03:39 pm »

I have a VPI Classic which comes with it's own alignment jig. I've got a digital VTF gauge accurate to 3 decimal places. I meticulously set these cartridges up and aligned them. Azimuth looks right on. VTA is set as close to parallel as I can get them. I set up each cartridge to the highest setting of their recommended ranges (1.8 for the Benz, 2.0 for the Blue Point).

neobop · « **Reply #5 on:** 28 Apr 2011, 05:56 pm »

This is a real stumper. About the only cart set-up you didn't cover is how much torque you used on the mounting screws. That could do it, BTW, but I assume the cart is on there tight.

What was the other table you mentioned you have/had? Any other common denominators beside the phono stage?

This is tricky because it would seem like a tracking problem. It is possible I guess, that cables and/or phono stage are exaggerating sibilance. At this point, the only thing I can think of that might solve the problem is to make substitutions. Maybe you could borrow a phono stage to start?
neo

drew8mc · « **Reply #6 on:** 28 Apr 2011, 06:17 pm »

I know... it's been killing me.

The cartridges were both pretty tight. Not too tight, mind you, but snug enough that twisting the cartridge was not possible.

I did think that borrowing a phono stage from someone might tell me if that's the problem. I'll try swapping cables around and see if that's it. I did think of that but haven't tried it yet.

Anyone in the South Shore of Boston got a phono preamp they can lend me?

drew8mc · « **Reply #7 on:** 28 Apr 2011, 06:45 pm »

Oh, and my other turntable was a Well Tempered Labs Record Player. Cartridges I've used included a Shure V15, Grado Statement Sonata, Sumiko Blue Point No. 2, Ortofon 2M Black, and my current Benz SL. The musical Surroundings Phonomena was the only phono stage used throughout this period.

All of these cartridges had the same sibilance problem to varying degrees. I had thought perhaps that was how all vinyl setups sounded, and was an inherent shortcoming of vinyl playback.

I recently was watching some UTube videos of folks vinyl setups (it's kind of stupid but I find it fun to watch videos of people showing and playing their systems) and one guy had recorded straight from the phono preamp (instead of the bad mic in the camera). The sound was devoid of any of the distortion I've had day in and day out. It's even on the inner groves which is where I get the most distortion. Granted it was a completely different setup than mine, (all Rega except a Creek phono). But virtually all the components were less expensive than mine... and even over my computer setup I could tell it was superior to what I've been getting.

Here is the video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3_E4pDrreo0

Minn Mark · « **Reply #8 on:** 28 Apr 2011, 08:00 pm »

Do you have a zero-stat gun, or other way to get rid of excess static on the LP and platter? The reason I mention this is that I am a new VPI Classic owner (I'm using a Sumiko Blackbird), and in my home environment, the TT and LP really seem to easily pick up static, which if I do not discharge/eliminate with a zero-stat gun, I really hear as crackling while playing the disc. I filter my AC, and I have the TT grounded. Bottom line: consider static, too.

Mark

Wayner · « **Reply #9 on:** 28 Apr 2011, 08:34 pm »

Are you sure the problem is mechanical? What is the output of the Benz and what preamp are you using? It could be overloading the preamp.

Wayner

drew8mc · « **Reply #10 on:** 28 Apr 2011, 08:48 pm »

The Benz puts out roughly .4 mv I think... I'll have to check. My preamp wasn't set to it's highest gain setting. I then hooked up my Blue Point and changed it to its lowest gain setting (40db). Same problem so I'm pretty sure it's not overloading the preamp.

Hadn't thought about static, but I can say it's not pops that happen independent of music, but a sort of high frequency grunge that's there only when the high frequencies are there.

Wayner · « **Reply #11 on:** 28 Apr 2011, 09:01 pm »

Well, there still is an input to your main preamp from the phono preamp. Is the main preamp line level getting overloaded?

Wayner

drew8mc · « **Reply #12 on:** 28 Apr 2011, 09:05 pm »

I don't think it is. I've checked this problem with both my preamp and amp and also directly through a headphone amp with Sennheizer HD 650's. The preamp wasn't even on because it passes the signal through directly. The headphone amp is just a passive volume control in front of the head amp.

Wayner · « **Reply #13 on:** 28 Apr 2011, 09:23 pm »

OK, just asking to check all the bases.

bastlnut · « **Reply #14 on:** 28 Apr 2011, 09:34 pm »

hallo,

i know i will be hammered for this.....

why do you trust the test record to tell you if the cartridge is set up correctly?
if it sounds good to you then it probably is pretty close if not right on.
you and your ears are much better at getting it right than any test record that has not been calibrated.
be patient and make small changes over the next few days and you will know when you are spot on.

regards,
bas

drew8mc · « **Reply #15 on:** 28 Apr 2011, 10:09 pm »

That is the problem. It doesn't sound good to me. I looked to the test record to try and diagnose where that problem may lie. It's a bit easier to describe this problem to others using the test record which many others own and use.

dlaloum · « **Reply #16 on:** 29 Apr 2011, 12:44 am »

Another suggestion...

the Phonomena is one of the most configurable phono stages ....

Have you checked your loading setup?
You may have set it up with a large resonant peak in the audible HF range.

This could happen with a high Resistance load... and a mid to high capacitance... (MM settings)

Not as familiar with MC settings - but presumably the same could be possible.

Ericus Rex · « **Reply #17 on:** 29 Apr 2011, 01:01 am »

I'm not familiar with VPI's alignment jig so this may be a dumb question but...

Did you align the cantilever or the cartridge body?

I'm not on the South shore, I'm on the North shore but I do have a phono pre I'm not using at the moment, a Ray Samuels Nighthawk, you could borrow if you can't figure this thing out with cartridge/table adjustment.

felixscerri · « **Reply #18 on:** 29 Apr 2011, 01:11 am »

G'day all, I don't wish to oversimplify this issue, but to me it sounds like a pure and simple case of incorrect cartridge overhang. Nothing too mysterious, in my opinion anyway.

Is a simple two point overhang protractor applicable to your turntable/ tonearm? If so, then please have a read of this page in the section on correct overhang set up. http://www.mds975.co.uk/Content/vinyl07.html
Regards, Felix.

neobop · « **Reply #19 on:** 29 Apr 2011, 01:45 am »

It really is impossible to diagnose something like this long distance. Without being able to actually check the set-up, we must assume that the factory protractor was used properly and everything else is set up right, even though something like that would be the most likely culprit. But on multiple carts and tables? It just doesn't make sense unless the same mistake is made repeatedly.

Thinking about this a bit more, it is likely a phono stage problem is responsible. Do you have the optional battery power supply? If there were a malfunction in the auto-charging circuit, I think it could cause the high frequency noise and overall poor sound quality. Even if you left it on 47K with high gain for your MC, it shouldn't be that bad, maybe out of balance or focus. This is just a guess of course.
Once you get this squared away, I'd recommend setting arm height by ear. Best position is often something other than level.
neo