SS that sounds like a SET?

JackD201 · « **Reply #20 on:** 27 Apr 2011, 09:12 am »

That wasn't exactly the question Tyson.

Srajan Ebaen · « **Reply #21 on:** 27 Apr 2011, 09:35 am »

As a former set lover and since reformed sand man -- kinda -- I have a few observations.

First, you can strap a FirstWatt F4 on the tail of a set. Without any voltage gain the F4 acts as pure current buffer, presumably mostly invisible. But it's not. By changing the output impedance/damping and current delivery, the speaker straightens up and flies righter. Where set straight is fluffier and fuzzier, this now gets tauter (some might say more rigid) and some of the 'connective tissue' (stuff between the notes) gets wiped out.

This is neither good nor bad but it most certainly is different. This and similar experiences make me believe that part of the set sound is intrinsic to its sloppier speaker control, lower damping and less current.

Heavy doses of 2nd-order harmonics equal octave doubling which is pleasant and rich but gets confused and opaque with complex stuff.

Sand amps can deliberately produce even- rather than odd-order harmonics to on that count be set-ish. But they still don't sound the same for the above reasons. And they very likely will have far reduced amounts of THD too.

That said, one amp that was as if not more set than a true set was the Austrian Crayon Audio integrated with a, gulp, big Swiss SMPS inside. On tone saturation, 3D soundstaging, holography, vocal lock and all the usual tube stuff, it really was as good as my various triode amps. But it had better bandwidth, firmer bass, lower noise and superior drive to those. For me it was better all around but again, not the same.

I wasn't present when Bob Carver ran his famous sand vs. glass experiment to know whether it really can be done to make a sand amp sound just like a glass amp. I've certainly experienced 'grafting' of specific qualities atop typical transistor qualities but a wholesale cloning or overlay I've not come across yet and am starting to think it's not possible.

The latest np project should shed further light. Nelson Pass has custom commissioned SiC SIT parts (silicon carbide static induction transistors). He says that where jfets behave like pentodes these modern (expensive) custom parts from the radar industry behave like triodes. He's sending me a prelim first amp with these parts shortly which I'll compare to my J2 and F5 to see how much more it cracks into the 'true' triode ranks. My assumption thus far is that if it does (go farther), I'll like it better than a real tube set. I already listen far more to my F5 (or for more power the modwright kwa100se) than my valve amps.

Other folks will feel differently and speakers of course are the big equalizer. To work properly sets need the right speakers.

In conclusion to find ss that sounds like set I think is a fool's errand. To find ss that mimicks certain traits *is* possible and in combination with other aspects where ss is superior could well end up making more people more happy than going the pure tube route.

JLM · « **Reply #22 on:** 27 Apr 2011, 11:15 am »

Up here in the great white north, we read of excess heat from tubes with more than a smile. If you southern boys can't take the heat, then you aught to get out of that kitchen.

Again it's synergy, in this case the very simple matter of wattage versus speaker efficiency. If you can find a speaker you like that is efficient enough for SET (which of course can vary significantly in wattage) for the size of your room and your tastes, go for it. I'm a speaker guy, and thats how I see it.

rollo · « **Reply #23 on:** 27 Apr 2011, 01:54 pm »

Quote from: JoshK on 26 Apr 2011, 04:03 pm

Other way around, you mean even order distortion of SET amps. PP (splitting phase) cancels even and leaves odd prevailing. Still, there are some single ended SS amps, such as the Firstwatt Aleph J, F3, J2, M2. But I don't think that is wholly the reason why SS and Glass state sound different. There are plenty of other factors, including dampening factor, quasi-current source vs voltage source, clipping behaviour, etc.

Details, details,

thanks Josh.

charles

Quiet Earth · « **Reply #24 on:** 27 Apr 2011, 03:38 pm »

Quote from: Srajan Ebaen on 27 Apr 2011, 09:35 am

- set straight is fluffier and fuzzier

- set sound is intrinsic to its sloppier speaker control

- heavy doses of 2nd-order harmonics equal octave doubling which is pleasant and rich but gets confused and opaque

- to work properly sets need the right speakers.

I suppose if your gear is in a constant state of flux then you might come away with some of those observations. Here's my take :

- solid state is fluffier and fuzzier

- solid state sound is intrinsic to its sloppy speaker control

- heavy doses of measurable perfection make solid state sound like electronic equipment and not like music

- to work properly solid state needs the right speakers

JoshK · « **Reply #25 on:** 27 Apr 2011, 04:25 pm »

I've been quite intrigued to hear the First Watt stuff in particular the single-ended offerings.

I am inclined to agree with Srajan's thought on why SS sounds different than tubes, though I have not experienced as much as he has.

zybar · « **Reply #26 on:** 27 Apr 2011, 05:38 pm »

Quote from: JoshK on 27 Apr 2011, 04:25 pm

I've been quite intrigued to hear the First Watt stuff in particular the single-ended offerings.

I am inclined to agree with Srajan's thought on why SS sounds different than tubes, though I have not experienced as much as he has.

I have heard First Watt and owned Pass...neither remotely made me think that I was listening to a SET amp.

That said, my SET amps continue to collect dust in the corner as I refuse to stop using my Atma-Sphere OTL amps. For me, the Atma-Sphere amps give me the liquidity, warmth, and texture of the SET amp with the detail, speed, and impact of a SS amp. Only drawback is the heat and electrical cost.

George

jtwrace · « **Reply #27 on:** 27 Apr 2011, 06:30 pm »

I will say that my Clayton amps sound most like SET.

I owned Pass and Krell and they sounded NOTHING like an SET amp.

I'm looking forward to trying my new tube amp though.

JoshK · « **Reply #28 on:** 27 Apr 2011, 07:04 pm »

George, What SET amps do you have? I don't think I have followed what your owning now.

roscoeiii · « **Reply #29 on:** 27 Apr 2011, 07:08 pm »

And jtwrace, what tube amp is entering your life

jtwrace · « **Reply #30 on:** 27 Apr 2011, 07:18 pm »

Quote from: roscoeiii on 27 Apr 2011, 07:08 pm

And jtwrace, what tube amp is entering your life

Atma-Sphere

roscoeiii · « **Reply #31 on:** 27 Apr 2011, 07:24 pm »

Welcome to the Atmas club.

zybar · « **Reply #32 on:** 27 Apr 2011, 07:30 pm »

Quote from: JoshK on 27 Apr 2011, 07:04 pm

George, What SET amps do you have? I don't think I have followed what your owning now.

I have a pair of modified (by Mike Galusha) Audio Mirror SET amps as my backup to the Atma-Sphere MA-1's.

George

zybar · « **Reply #33 on:** 27 Apr 2011, 07:31 pm »

Quote from: jtwrace on 27 Apr 2011, 07:18 pm

Atma-Sphere

Which model did you go with?

I am sending my MK 3 MA-1's into Atma-Sphere tomorrow or Friday to get upgraded to the current MK 3.1 status.

George

jtwrace · « **Reply #34 on:** 27 Apr 2011, 08:07 pm »

Quote from: zybar on 27 Apr 2011, 07:31 pm

Which model did you go with?

I am sending my MK 3 MA-1's into Atma-Sphere tomorrow or Friday to get upgraded to the current MK 3.1 status.

George

Sweet!

I went with M-60's that are being upgraded to 3.1. I really wanted MA-1's but wanted to see if the M-60's would please me. Not only from the size but also the sonic character. I can always go up...

BobRex · « **Reply #35 on:** 27 Apr 2011, 08:40 pm »

Regarding SETs and Atmas, Many years ago (close to the last Century) I attended a Philly Triode show (it was the show that was written up in TAS, Anna Logg (RIP) did the reportage). We listened to a compliment of amps, including 300Bs, something from WAVAC (I forget what the tube was), Cary 2A3, and an Atma M60 driving a pair of CAR T3s. Of all the maps, the only things that impressed me were the Carys and the Atmas. All of the 300Bs sounded like undynamic mud.

If I ever retire my Moondogs, Atmas are my prime candidates.

sts9fan · « **Reply #36 on:** 27 Apr 2011, 08:55 pm »

Q: I am looking for a SS amp.
A: How bout 20 tubes per side?

zybar · « **Reply #37 on:** 27 Apr 2011, 09:14 pm »

Quote from: sts9fan on 27 Apr 2011, 08:55 pm

Q: I am looking for a SS amp.
A: How bout 20 tubes per side?

Glad you can count Kris.

All kidding aside, I simply was providing an opinion that none of the SS amps mentioned sound like a SET amp to me and that the Atma-Sphere OTL amps sound even better than a SET.

George

sts9fan · « **Reply #38 on:** 27 Apr 2011, 10:14 pm »

Addition was always my best subject! It all seems moot becuase the OP is MIA.

SET Man · « **Reply #39 on:** 11 May 2011, 01:27 am »

Quote from: mjosef on 27 Apr 2011, 04:03 am

Yeah, I also turn to cooler amplifications during the hottest months... the quest of the OP is like a mythical legend, keep hearing about it but so far no luck.
If someone finds 'it', hope they will share the secret.

I have heard SET Man's SET amps ...and its simply a delicious sound. If he ever gets out of audio I would hope he will let me have first dibs on his amps.
But I won't be holding my breath

Hey!

Don't do it man! You'll turn blue long before I let my beloved SET amps for the pass 11 years go

And I do have another pair of spare tubes, with that I'm set for another 10 to 15 years... maybe more

Well, I hope the OP found what he is looking for. But SET done right can be expensive, not to mention finding right speaker to go with it.

Take care,
Buddy