Let talk about Phono stage

orientalexpress · « **on:** 31 Mar 2011, 02:05 pm »

over the weekend,my neigbor brought over his DIY phono pre, after some listening.I realize what how importance Phono pre is.even tho i thought i have good pre amp until i heard his.Now let the chasing begin.The true image is amazing,u can tell where the musicians is standing.tubes or solid stage.Let hear it.

lapsan

neobop · « **Reply #1 on:** 31 Mar 2011, 06:24 pm »

There have been quite a few threads the past few months about phono stages. Perhaps you could start this off by telling us what kind of cart and phono stage you have, and something about the DIY one you tried.
neo

felixscerri · « **Reply #2 on:** 1 Apr 2011, 09:43 am »

G'day all, yes I agree that the phono stage is very important. I am also a fan of DIY phono stages and my personal favourite is the excellent Elliott Sound Products P06 and P05B power supply. I've built five or six now (and they all work) for different applications. http://sound.westhost.com/project06.htm
Regards, Felix.

DaveyW · « **Reply #3 on:** 1 Apr 2011, 01:25 pm »

Re. the OP, as Neo says we really need to know;
What's being compared to What? .....and .....
What's the rest of the chain look like?

The phonostage is a key component, I found this to be especially so when running LOMC's.

I spent a fun year, on and off, trialling various low/mid price phono stages before I settled on the one I did - And it really made my LOMC's sing

I've really got Bas to thank for this, he was the one who encouraged me to look for better matches.
Well worth the effort and I'm glad I took the time and didn't just jump in both feet first - Which is my usual approach to buying most things

Cheers
Dave

bastlnut · « **Reply #4 on:** 1 Apr 2011, 02:33 pm »

awh, shucks.....

welcome of course.

i think it is the most important part of the system, just ahead of the tonearm.....
i like to play around with different cartridges and a good phono stage is absolutely necessary.
step ups and SUTs are also needed to make the whole set up more flexible.
being that i use more than one tonearm at a time, i also have more than one phono stage in my system and a few Step Up devices to choose from for when i try a new cartridge.
suggest that you determine what your plans are for a phono stage and how many changes will be made how often.
of course, as Dave says, what does the rest of your system look like...and what changes have you planned for it? long of short term plans?

regards,
bas

regards,
bas

orientalexpress · « **Reply #5 on:** 1 Apr 2011, 04:13 pm »

This table will be my long term plan http://cgi.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cl.pl?anlgtabl&1305257948.but that down the line.In the mean time i'm using Heybrook tt2 with sumitko mmt arm,i got dynvexctor 20dx,empire m5d,benz ACE LO and fidelity research mc201 to go with minimax at the moment ,i got Tom Evans 20th ann phono on the way.I'm trying to find some changes under the couch and sofa for the Teres turntable.

lapsan

BaMorin · « **Reply #6 on:** 1 Apr 2011, 06:25 pm »

My current phono stage has been in my system since 1979-1980. It has been updated twice by the manufacturer for rediculous low money. I haven't really been looking to change it out, but I have heard other preamps that couldn't replace it........and they were a lot more money. The biggest issue I had with the others is the amount of background noise added. Some were very sweet sounding.......the VanAlstine modded ARC SP3-A1 was glorious in richness......I just couldn't take the tube "hiss" any longer. Which really isn't noticed, until you hear a completely silent pre.

Ericus Rex · « **Reply #7 on:** 1 Apr 2011, 07:43 pm »

Quote from: BaMorin on 1 Apr 2011, 06:25 pm

My current phono stage has been in my system since 1979-1980. It has been updated twice by the manufacturer for rediculous low money. I haven't really been looking to change it out, but I have heard other preamps that couldn't replace it........and they were a lot more money. The biggest issue I had with the others is the amount of background noise added. Some were very sweet sounding.......the VanAlstine modded ARC SP3-A1 was glorious in richness......I just couldn't take the tube "hiss" any longer. Which really isn't noticed, until you hear a completely silent pre.

This should be good and silent...and great sounding!

http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=92610.0

BaMorin · « **Reply #8 on:** 1 Apr 2011, 09:49 pm »

Quote from: Ericus Rex on 1 Apr 2011, 07:43 pm

This should be good and silent...and great sounding!

http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=92610.0

AH, someone else mentions tube hiss and or rush. I did notice one spec he gave, and that was tracking RIAA down to 0.5db. The DB systems phono stage tracks the curve to 0.04db 0.002% distortion. Just sayin.

bastlnut · « **Reply #9 on:** 1 Apr 2011, 09:52 pm »

hallo,

the Tom Evans phono stage is a good one.
though it does create a problem....
the settings are all factory set, and it is not flexible.
you have 3 LOMC cartridges that all require differnt settings, load and gain, and what you will have wtih the TE 20th is load and gain for only one cartridge, maybe with settings that will work with none of the cartridges you have if it is a used one,
and the others will need a different phono stage.
if you will stick to just one cartridge until it wears out, then this is not a problem.

what amplifier are you using connected to which speaker?
will you need a phono stage that will let you change gain and loading?
are you adverse to using an MM phono stage and adding a SUT?

regards,
bas

orientalexpress · « **Reply #10 on:** 1 Apr 2011, 10:15 pm »

The Tom Evans phono stage is on order,I'm currently run Sp tech revalation speakers with DAC cherry plus amp,Modwright swl 9.0 SE pre-amp as my front end.probally need a step up also.

lapsan

Roger A. Modjeski · « **Reply #11 on:** 2 Apr 2011, 09:08 am »

Check out the posts at music reference if you are interested in a low noise all tube phono stage. Its something I am working on now and would appreciate input on features

galyons · « **Reply #12 on:** 2 Apr 2011, 04:17 pm »

Jim Hagerman's Cornet2 is very well regarded. It is MM, but his Piccolo is a superb head amp to combine with the Cornet2. The Cornet2 board is top quality. The SRPP circuit is well designed to be musical and very quiet. The Cornet2 is very good as a stock build, but, IMO, can be built to compete with some the best commercial units using boutique components.

Lot's of build info in the Hagerman circle.

Cheers,
Geary

BPoletti · « **Reply #13 on:** 2 Apr 2011, 04:39 pm »

Keith Herron does a phono stage. IMO, it's among the very best available without regards to cost. His latest model does both mm and mc and has user adjustable loading.

rollo · « **Reply #14 on:** 2 Apr 2011, 05:11 pm »

Well, there are SS and tubed phonostages. There are MM and MC phonostages. Gain of such is very important. A MM should be 50 to 56 db of gain. MC up tp 70db for those low output MCs.
Features, like a mono switch, polarity, RIAA curves, load, are all a plus. the key IMO is te sophistication of the power supply. A choke regulated supply is key to great sound. A well designed tubed unit should be dead quiet, no tube rush, if so its the tubes. SS makes the most sense to me if you have tubed gear after that.
Both can be done right. Zanden and Boulder have proven that. start with a budget and choose either SS or tubed and go for it. have fun trying.

charles

blakep · « **Reply #15 on:** 3 Apr 2011, 05:29 pm »

I'm not so sure that I would agree that a MM "should have" 50-56 db of gain or a MC stage 70 db of gain.

IMO, many users new to vinyl (and possibly even more experienced users) experience problems or less than stellar sound quality due to cartridge/phono stage mismatches relative to output and gain. MM cartridges with outputs in the 5-6 mV range will trouble (overload) many phono stages on peaks with 50 db of gain and even if the stage does not overload this kind of mismatch often results in a hardening up of sound quality and collapsing of soundstage and spatial information as well as noise being introuduced from too much gain. On the other hand, not enough gain is a problem as well, resulting in an anemic overall presentation. Dynamics are greatly compromised, in my experience, with both too little and too much gain.
The situation is often confusing for newcomers to vinyl because they feel the volume pot should be in the same spot to provide equal volume for CD and vinyl when most of the time it will not be and vinyl will result in riding the volume pot a bit higher.

The same issues are present with low output MC's, perhaps to an even greater extent. I use a modified Denon 103R (rated at .25 mV output but actually outputs closer to .3mV) and I would not consider running that cartridge with 70 db of gain.

FWIW, I have found the phono preamp gain calculator at the KAB website to be pretty much dead on in terms of calculating phono preamp gain (systems using a passive preamplifier may be the exception).

It is at the bottom of the phono preamp page at the following link:

http://kabusa.com/frameset.htm?/

galyons · « **Reply #16 on:** 3 Apr 2011, 06:26 pm »

Quote from: blakep on 3 Apr 2011, 05:29 pm

I'm not so sure that I would agree that a MM "should have" 50-56 db of gain or a MC stage 70 db of gain.

I quite agree. "More is better" is a formula for mismatch. An increase of 6dB is a doubling of gain. If one considers a "typical" MM output as 4mV, an ideal match would be about 38dB. 50dB would be 4 times the gain needed and very likely overdrive the upstream amplification. 56dB would be an 8 times gain over the "ideal" 38db. Many times we forget that decibels are logarithmic, small numbers to express large relative changes.

Cheers,
Geary

JoshK · « **Reply #17 on:** 6 Apr 2011, 03:16 pm »

I haven't done the controlled experiment myself, but I believe the phono stage is atleast as important as anything else in the chain. Its actually a rather tough engineering/design problem to design a phono stage given all the things you must balance.

I am planning to build myself a version of Gary Pimm's phono. If I weren't up for building a phono, I'd definitely choose the DiyHifiSupply's Ergo uber-cole phono stage.

woodsyi · « **Reply #18 on:** 6 Apr 2011, 04:49 pm »

Phono Stage is as important as anything else in the system. You have to match performance/price/type for the music that you listen to. It's a fun journey and there is no right or wrong answer. I am down to 2 systems that are different because I couldn't narrow it down to one to cover all of the music I listen to.

BPoletti · « **Reply #19 on:** 6 Apr 2011, 05:48 pm »

Quote from: woodsyi on 6 Apr 2011, 04:49 pm

Phono Stage is as important as anything else in the system. You have to match performance/price/type for the music that you listen to. It's a fun journey and there is no right or wrong answer. I am down to 2 systems that are different because I couldn't narrow it down to one to cover all of the music I listen to.

I beg to differ a bit. There are right and wrong answers. Cartridge output matching is either right or wrong. Cartridge loading is either right or wrong. Matching the quality of the phono stage to the rest of the electronics is Goldilocks: too much, not enough, or just right. Using a phono stage that will reflect the quality of the front-end is either not enough or acceptable.

So the statement that "there is no right or wrong" is questionable at best.