[aljordan]

Hi,

I noticed in your post that you are unsure of all this work because your current speakers (Paradigm Studio 20) are sounding great.  I finished building the 1801b's about a month ago, and thought you might be interested to know that my main speakers are the Paradigm Studio 100.  I actually began engaging on this entire speaker building thing because I wanted a smaller pair of speakers for another room, and I originally was planning on buying the Studio 20s.  However, I was not happy with the peakey upper midrange I was hearing at the local store (which may have been a bi-product of a bad listening room).

Anyway, since I have finished the 1801's, my Studio 100's have been packed up in their boxes and sent out to the garage, and the 1801's have taken their place in the main system.  While I always liked the Studio 100's, in comparison to the 1801, they do not really rate very well.  The 1801 is a far better speaker in terms of openness, imaging, sound stage, and detail (note that I chose the resistor option that places the treble down by 1 db, and found it was a little bright for very live sounding rooms, but very good in their current room).

I think you will find the results of your effort well worth the time and expense put in.

Alan

[David Ellis]

I don't have much to add, but would simply like to offer confirmation for the very good remarks from David S.!

The first veneer I purchased was from local finishing store and think had been sitting around the store for 3-4 years. It was split, dry, brittle. I didn't know any better just thought this was the way it was supposed to be. It got worse as I cut it and tried to fit. It was single ply.

I concur.  The local paper backed veneer is very tedious.  I never use it for this reason.  The 2-ply from http://www.tapeease.com/ I generally use the cross grain substrate because it's very stable and very easy to work with!

I used the smelly contact cement. It wasn't so bad as I worked just outside my workbench area....aside from the very large spider that got stuck on one piece of veneer. I figured out the key was two coats and actually following the instructions and letting cement dry up before applying. This is not intuitive and wasting veneer and paste (both expensive) doing test runs was not a real option.

Yep, bugs will stick to that contact cement.  Also, 2 coats are key since the first coat totally soaks into the wood.

I had lots of bubbles in my work. The veneer I removed was seriously bubbled and unacceptable. Main blame was not following directions by letting glue set up.

Yep, been there done that too.  The contact cement must dry before pressing the material/lumber together.

I also had lots of chip outs with my router.

This varies depending upon the wood and the bit.  A sharp bit will chip less than a dull bit.  Dull bits tend to chip, tear and burn.

[DavidS]

A photo update after two coats of watco.  Start the steel wool routine now.  Planning to put crossovers together this weekend.  I think Dave doesn't want photos of these spread around so will pass on photos of these so next is figuring out stuffing and should be ready to fire them up in the next 2-3 weeks just in time for my summer hols.  Closeup was to show you results of bubbling on one speaker, unfortunately in a very poor location.  Should have replaced this veneer as well.  Tried cutting and filling the bubbles with mahongany wood fill but still very sad looking effort.  Rest of the panels have turned out pretty good.

http://members.shaw.ca/davidspeed/2.jpg">

http://members.shaw.ca/davidspeed/3.jpg">

[David Ellis]

Watco will telegraph that glue excessively.  The glue will show up tremendously after the Watco.

In your situation, you might consider a brown magic-marker on those glue spots.  Then try to cover it lightly with finger nail polish.  It'll be patchwork, but some fiddling with permanent brown marker will look better than the white/yellow glue IMO.  The finger nail polish will keep the brown marker from being dissolved by further Watco.  However, if you don't have a good permanent marker, the finger nail polish will dissolve it too.  If the finger nail polish AND watco both dissolve the marker, just put finishing wax over the brown marker AFTER all the finish work is accomplished.

Dave

[macmeech]

A photo update after two coats of watco.  Start the steel wool routine now.  Planning to put crossovers together this weekend.  I think Dave doesn't want photos of these spread around so will pass on photos of these so next is figuring out stuffing and should be ready to fire them up in the next 2-3 weeks just in time for my summer hols.  Closeup was to show you results of bubbling on one speaker, unfortunately in a very poor location.  Should have replaced this veneer as well.  Tried cutting and filling th ...

You have to reveneer the top for the cabinet to reflect your good work. You should be able to do this and then trim using yellow glue and a router.

[DavidS]

what do you think about my chances of cutting this veneer off and reveneering.  What is best way to do this a) to safely remove old veneer old veneer b) to avoid mucking up rest of speaker - sanding, trimming - just seems risky.  Speakers are generally great except this one piece.  Appreciate the advice.

[macmeech]

what do you think about my chances of cutting this veneer off and reveneering.  What is best way to do this a) to safely remove old veneer old veneer b) to avoid mucking up rest of speaker - sanding, trimming - just seems risky.  Speakers are generally great except this one piece.  Appreciate the advice.

http://www.taunton.com/finewoodworking/pages/fw_feat_video.asp
ask the expert. I think you can go right over the top of the old veneer as long as it is well glued and sealed. However, I don't know what I am talking about. But the fellow in the video knows as he veneered for a living. You can probably talk to him through the magazine by email or telephone.

[David Ellis]

That's a good idea and should work fine.  

I recommend chipping the old/bubbly veneer where needed.  Fill the gaps and uneven surface with bondo.  Sand it flat.  Then a new layer of veneer should work just fine.

Thanks for the idea on this.  It's a good one!

[DavidS]

Good news is I have my speakers all together and mostly up and running.  Bad news is tweeter on left speaker is not working.  With Dave away anyone with advice for trouble shooting a non-functioning tweeter and I guess crossover.  Know I have power there as I replaced the speaker with my paradigm left and both parts of the 2 way work just fine.  Thanks for feedback.

David

[JD From LA]

I recently installed Hiquphon OW-1s in a pair of Linn KANs and had the same problem with one.  Here's what I would do:

1.  Desolder the tweeter and check by touching the speaker leads from your hi-fi directly to the tweeter contacts.  You just need enough power and enough time to ascertain the tweeter is working.  A second or two is enough with the volume barely cracked open.   Then resolder the tweeter to the network.

The tweeter contacts can be a pain if you've never used anything like them before.  The good news is they are very rugged and will withstand lots of resoldering.  That's good because the bad news is you may need more than one crack at them anyway.  My first attempt resulted in my first cold joint since 1976!  Funny thing is, the joint looked perfect.

2.  If the tweeter works and you're reasonably sure of your soldering job to the tweeter contacts,  start looking for a cold joint in the crossover parts  exclusively in the tweeter signal path.  If I was a betting man, I'd say you're odds were 66% cold joint to tweeter, 33% cold joint somewhere else, 1% some other cause.

My 2 Hz

JD From LA

[DavidS]

JD - exactly what I did.  Broke old and then re-soldered tweeter leads fired it up and worked!  Was expecting and not looking forward to much more work.  Phew easier than I thought...break-in time now.  Will post pictures and impressions of sound in next day or so.  Thanks for support.

David

[DavidS]

Pretty much four months to the day from when they were ordered I completed work on my Ellis 1801's.  Since my last update:

1.  I followed the advice and replaced the veneer on the right speaker.  Taking the veneer off was relatively easy - used a small hand plane which worked great.  I used the last of my veneer to replace it and in typical inexperienced style nearly sanded through the new veneer trying to get it to match up with the front baffle.  What a great set of speakers I could build if I could only start over again!

2.  Finishing the speakers took lots of time.  Much sanding to start with - the usual routine starting at 120 and through to 400 sand paper.  I didn't use Dave's Watco brew - rather just straight watco.  I replaced the veneer after 2 coats so started over on second speaker after the new veneer was applied.  Progressively watco takes more time to dry so this pretty much took 3 weeks to get 5 coats on each speaker.  I then used three coats of satin minwax poly.  Used steel wool between with the later coats of each - could only find a pack of 24 - now have 20 left - anyone need steel wool?

3.  Built the cross over.  As noted for me this was the most challenging part of the whole job.  I think 3 or 4 emails to Dave who always responded within 24 hours with answers which now when I look back were for dumb should have figured it out questions.  Soldering was tricky ... not good after 3 cups of coffee.  I have shaky hands at best of times.  Have lots of little solder balls rolling about all over the house.  Went through all the solder with my mistakes and probably using too much in some joints but purchased some more at local electronics store no problem.  Hardest solder of all was the tweeter - read above.  Oh yeah thinking I knew it all I purchased a solder gun - typical male mistake this gun thing must be better than a little iron like they had at radio shack.  Wrong!!  Traded the gun in on some used cd's and a wire cutter and went and bought a cheap solder iron at Radio Shack.

4.  Putting the speakers together was challenging.  Biggest challenge was my big hands and had to enlist assistance of Donna to connect crossovers to the external terminals.  Used Walmart foam as per Dave's post below.  Also put some recycled cushion poly behind woofer.  Anticipation was high - wired in tweeters, screwed everything down and fired them up.

5.  Yech....sounded terrible.  Now had read somewhere else where Dave said speakers were broken in....figured I must have screwed up the crossover!  First cd on was old favourites Scud Mountain Boys and admit at best of times they sound like a Simon and Garfunkel 45 on 331/3 but this was like 9 and a half or something.  Sloooowwwww motion sound, very poor high end, only the bass sounded okay.  Went and had something stronger than coffee to drink and calmed down a bit and reminded myself that everything I have ever owned took some time to break in.  By the next morning the sound had improved somewhat but now everything was skewed to the right - playing MCcoy Tyner, McCoy and the Giants all seemed to be standing in the same phone booth located in the right corner of my living room.  Aha no sound was coming from the tweeter in the left speaker.  More panic - but essentially rewired the resistor and tweeter put it back together and wow beautiful music.  Think I got lucky because it could have been worse with my too large hands back in the deep resesses of the speaker playing with crossover connections.

6.  Norah Jones was in my living room

Put the radio on continuous for about 24 hours and did some serious listening last night.  Donna who is admitting maybe she was wrong about the home made comment said put Norah on ... you always do when you have new gear.  On goes Norah and amazing the phone booth is gone to somewhere else and there is Norah right in front of us.  Holygraphic!  In hindsight I still think my little Paradigm's are great speakers....they aren't far behind but with about 30 hours the 1801's are very transparent (sadly favourite Holly Golightly live was a little harsh sounding but know it is the cd), have nice warmth and depth in the midrange, and the bass my sub being used as furniture for now (movies only - caught City of God - highly recommended last night).

Will hopefully post some more impressions in a couple of weeks or so as well as tally up the final budget (more than I told Donna... I did tell you didn't I - oh well guess I'm off the hook then - when I started).  Thats it for me upgradeitis is over....althould, well I was thinking, maybe now that I know how to solder and have a solder iron of my own after all, those ASKA amps sound pretty sweet.  Hmmmm if I sell my Paradigms for $600.00 then....

Enjoy the photos and thanks for all the support.

David Speed


http://members.shaw.ca/davidspeed/20.jpg">

http://members.shaw.ca/davidspeed/21.jpg">

[macmeech]

It was easier to remove the old veneer that veneering over the top, right?

Congratulations on a long project well done. I do nor think there is a commercial design as good as the Ellis.

No way am I going to build my own after what you went through. I can get the boxes made for 2-300 dollars each, and that is looking good compared to my nonexistent woodworking skills.

[JD From LA]

Gee, David, I don't know what you're worried about.  They sure look great to me.  Congratulations on a job well done.

JD

[Carlman]

I spent 12 hours putting a pair of monoblock amps into their cases.  I was thinking it would take 1-2 hours.  So, I really feel your pain as I read through your trials.

The good news is, you have some very attractive speakers.  If it were me, I'd pull them into the room a bit more but, don't know if Donna would approve.

I'd bet it'll be another 200 (or more) hours before they start sounding like they're going to sound for the rest of their lives.  Leave the radio on all the time... crank it a bit when you leave if that's possible.

-C