[DavidS]

This week I ordered an 1801 kit from David Ellis.  I am a classic lurker who researches others opinions endlessly before making this kind of decision, but rarely contribute.  I enjoy some of the articles I have read about diy experience with building kits or from scratch so thought it might be cool to post weekly here as I go through the process of building my speakers.

I guess also I hope to expand my level of support as I do this project - I am a toal novice at doing anything like this and don't have any buddies who can pop over to give me a hand.  Next best thing is internet buddies.  To be honest my expertise is about sports (want to fix your slice) or maybe about music - have rediscovered audio gear in the past year and a half after dabbling in the early 80's as a university student.  This whole project is pretty intimidating.  I see it breaking down as:

1.  build the boxes - I am a skilsaw carpenter at best.  Have built a deck, a bookshelf, and last year a garden shed from plans.  Never used a router ... my only attempt at something like furniture a garden bench was a disaster.  That said this task is the least intimidating for me.

2.  veneer and finish the speakers.  Never done this...have watched the This Old House guys finish wood though.

3.  build the crossover.  Tried to talk David Ellis into building me a crossover but he convinced me this would be a key part of the learning experience.  I guess so - worked as a part time electrician's assistant while in university - only thing I remember is that I nearly killed myself - 3 times.

4.  Wire and install drivers and crossover - more of the same.

5.  break in speakers and listen to music - now this I can do.

Now a bit more about me:

My system is modded Jolida cd player for a source (love it), Musical Fidelity 3.2 integrated, Paradigm Studio 20 v3 (fear is that I will do all this work and the Paradigms will be better than the 1801's nahhh no way).  Also have a BW subwoofer that gets used mostly for movies but am having some success with music crossing it at 45 khz.  All my connets are audio note and have bought a number of power cords from chris ven haus that I've been please with.  Also have a furutech power filter.

I have been lusting after Focus Audios, Audio Note, Proac, Revel monitors for some time.  The Paradigms were a finger in the dyke - but really want a speaker I can build my system around for the next 10 years or so.  I really like how my system sounds (have heard better - Blue Circle amp and Harbeths are my benchmark) but want to go to the next level hopefully starting with the 1801's.  What got my attention was Dave Ellis' reports about this speaker doing mids and highs really good - bass is not so important to me.  So have high expectations.

Music Listening to this week:  Roswell Rudd's Malicool (not sure if it african world music or african jazz and Ryan Adams Love is Hell - both parts (loved Whiskeytown, Wilco, the Gourds, early REM and most Americana Dylan / Byrds influenced stuff)

What I did this week - ordered the kit (about $1,000 canadian so not cheap - my Paradigm's were $800).  Also researched mdf, some tools, veneers available locally, talked to a friend who has a table saw (I dont), and read David's building instructions 3 times.

What lies ahead this week.  Would like to firm up my arrangements for a table saw.  Want to purchase a router - any advice about a plunge router vs other styles?  Spent some time this morning looking for used but no plunge routers.  Would like to purchase mdf, clamps, glue.

My plan is to start project Easter Weekend.  Hoping to post some pictures as I go.  Will try and post weekly or bi-weekly as I move through project.  Feedback, suggestions, recommendations, etc are welcomed.

Thanks David Speed

[salva]

OK, My tips ... Having done the cabinet but not received the Kit yet ....

Get the local yard to cut the pieces, they have goot cutting machines and you will get exact measurements. Don't do that yourselve, that is tricky.

Check all the pieces before mounting, do not allow tolerances more than .3 mm in the piceces of the cabinet, that will make the whole thing more difficult to adjust and will force you to file a lot.

Pay the most attention to the Skeleton, get it square.

http://www.videoacustic.com/sferrairo/lowres_1801_fotos/

Use highest quality glue, use biscuits or pins to hold the skeleton. Clam the skeleton and remeasure the squareness once is tigth (it usually gets out of square).

Put the side pannels and front lumber with lots of glue, biscuits help to have that in place while you clamp but are not neccesary.

OK, this is as far as I have gone. Now waiting for the Kit to arrive.

Salva

This week I ordered an 1801 kit from David Ellis.  I am a classic lurker who researches others opinions endlessly before making this kind of decision, but rarely contribute.  I enjoy some of the articles I have read about diy experience with building kits or from scratch so thought it might be cool to post weekly here as I go through the process of building my speakers.
quote]

[Thump553]

I'm really interested in how both of you do.  I've been debating doing this for almost a year now.  My building skills are about par with salva's (but I have a mediocre Sears table saw) but I suspect my electronics skills are far worse.

[bryanb]

I've had really good luck with my router, which is a Bosch 1613EVS. Its about 2 hp and does plunge, had a really nice varible speed and micro depth adjust.

It also is supposed to work with a Jasper circle jig, which I conclude is a really good way to cut speaker openings. The best price I've seen is at Amazon (copy from "http" to "=hi") paste into browser:

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/B00009K77A/ref=pd_sim_hi_3/104-3014118-4778347?v=glance&s=hi

Anyone else have any experience with these?

Sounds like an amazing system for having just got back into it. I look forward to reading of your progress.

[wwmeatman]

I built a pair of 1801s a couple of months ago.  They were the first speakers I have ever built.  For the record I am not much of a woodworker.  

Here are my practically worthless tips --

I used an old radial arm saw and an old craftsman router with a craftsman circle jig.  The key is the circle jig.  It cut great holes and with a small modification I even used it the cut the ports.

Lay out your work as Dave suggests.  Make sure you rip the length on the eight side and brace boards all together.  Then rip the width on all of the side and brace boards and front/back.  That way they all turn out the same size.  It is the key as far as I am concerned and makes the fit perfect.  The big sides don't really matter as long as they are oversized.  The flush router bit takes care of that.  (I had never used a flush router before-- WOW)

I bought all the clamps and the biscut cutter at harbor freight.  They are super cheap imports but worked fine for me.   I paid three bucks a piece for the clamps and 35 for the biscut cutter on sale.  I did buy good #10 biscuts at home depot.

I decided to go with a black finish.  I sanded the mdf flat, lightly bondoed the edges and sprayed on a two part polyester primer with a satin black auto paint.  They look like a satin black steinway.

I finished the whole project easily in a weekend.  

I am very happy with the 1801's.   They have the best mids and highs of any speaker I have heard.

In fact I  had so much fun building the first set that I just finished another set of cabinets for the drivers last weekend and added a base modules.

Good luck...

[salva]

Hi, I'm going to do a black version of the speakers ...

Will you post some pictures of yours ?

All the Images I've seen of the 1801's are wood finish, none Black painting.

Tks

Salva

[rosconey]

jasper  circle jigs work well-
you can get a nice ryobi plunge router for under 100$ at home depot,mine is nice  

[neosomatic]

[DavidS]

Thanks for all the great replies to my week one post.

One thing you will need to get used to with me is the glacial pace I move at with construction projects.  July is a good estimate for completion - I am envious of those who can build a set of speakers in a couple of evenings.  Spent two and a half hours on Saturday morning with a table saw at work cutting my boards.  I purchased the 4 x 8 mdf sheet at the local hardware store on Friday - they ripped lenghtwise for me so I could transport on my lunch hour back to work in my Ford Focus.  

Have to say cutting the boards was a very left brain kind of task - 2.5 hours just flew by - always love this part of doing a project like this.  Even day dreamed a bit about how cool this would be to do on a full-time basis vs. my job which most including me will say is pretty good too - manage a municipal parks and recreation department.  Before cutting boards had council members and some community out on a two hour tour of declining urban forest in parks pitching for more resources in 2004 to start managing problems.

Made a few mistakes as I was cutting (table saw wasn't super accurate) but there was lots of mdf from the 4x8 sheet for redoing a cut.  Attached is a photo of all the board sitting on my workbench here at home.  The box on right is just laid out dry so I could show everyone the rough size of the speakers.

http://members.shaw.ca/davidspeed/speakers.jpg" ALT="Speakers">

Today I am off to buy some supplies.  Looked around fair amount at routers and think I will purchase new Ryobi for $100.00 at Home Depot.  Thanks for advice re ryobi - Madisound board had discussion going re: routers as well - timely.  I assume I can cut the holes in the bracing boards with router as well as jigsaw.  Will give router a try.   I also think the biscuit slots can be cut using router vs. biscuit joiner which I would have to try and rent?  Also glue, bar clamps, and sandpaper.

Cost so far (canadian dollars):

Speaker kit - $980.00
MDF - $28
Total to week two - $1028.00

What lies ahead for next week and question of the week:

I am starting to think about veneers and material for the baffle.  Part of the appeal for me is doing a wood veneer.  My previous speakers - little Thiel monitors had black piano finish.  My current Paradigms have a black wood finish.  Part of the WAF for me was going to wood.  Love the look of speakers like the Focus Audios with exotic wood finishes (Mahogany?)  Like I said in last post I read a lot on internet.  One of my favourite sites is Soundstage.com - they posted new reviews this week that included review of Proac Responses at http://www.soundstage.com/revequip/proac_d38.htm

Sounds like my dream speaker but also love the finish.  What do you think this material is.  How do you get a lighter but rich wood finish like this?  Recommendations for wood and veneer?  I guess I have been thinking maple but open to ideas and suggestions.

David Ellis has recommended purchasing veneer over the internet from tapeease.com.  Will check this out this week.

My speaker kit shipped from Montana? on Friday.  With easter weekend should be here the week after easter.  Looking forward to this.

I like the little box below that says what are you listening to right now.  Because its about the music for me... although Donna says I well crossed that line when I start building speaker cabinets.  So Nora Jones.  Have to admit that surprisingly I really liked the first one - usually more of an alternative music guy who curses that White Stripes is playing on the Emmy Awards show.  Haven't quite been able to get into the new Nora Jones although I think maybe eventually.  But the Nora I am enjoying is on Joel Harrison's 2003 Free Country.  Highly recommended - Nora only does 2 tunes but some nice deconstructed country and folk standards put through a free jazz guitar filter.  Hard to imagine but it works and sounds great on my system.

Finally - go Mariners go - baseball is back this week - yet another full time distraction.

David

[David Ellis]

Your cuts look good so far.  Yes, time really flies when doing this kind of work.  It's quite amazing  I think using the table saw is the most enjoyable part of building cabinets.  Probably the lease fun is rubbing lacquer.  Yes, the results are generally stunning, but only after a bunch of sweat.

As you consider veneer type, I recommend you don't purchase Cherry.  While it's pretty light colored initially, Cherry gets darker over time.  My wife and I have an old @1907 piano in Burl Cherry.  The color is equivalent to the shade of medium oak.  I suppose this process takes 4-7 years.

As you consider bar clamps, I think the ends from http://www.harborfreighttools.com/   work acceptably well.  They are NOT "Pony" quality ends, but the units from Harbor Freight are cheap and work okay.  I am not sure about shipping to Canada, eh.

I moved from Montana to Omaha last summer.

I have also thought about doing this on a full time basis.  My wife lovingly reminds me that I have to make a profit before this can happen.  Each year profit seems to marginally elude me.  I can see potential for profit, and have another 6 years before retiring from the USAF.  Maybe??

For now, I will continue waiting for my eyes to heal so that I can get back to work on cabinets for current customers.  Those guys have patiently waited too long for their 1801s.  

Dave

[rosconey]

sears(craftsman) has a adapter for routers that turns it into a biscut cutter-
buy the best quality router bits you can afford, cheap ones go dull fast

[bryanb]

Hey David,
Looks like you're up and at it. I enjoy the progress reports- keep it up.

I'd seen the tapeease site, which had a nice veneer selection. There are some nice options available, and price breaks for quantity.

So two questions. Anybody interested in placing an order for veneer to get a price break? And... I really like rosewood and teak, and wonder if anyone has tried the iron on version? I saw the self adhesive, but I've a feeling the stuff is a little dicey, don't trust it. http://www.tapeease.com/hot_melt_sheets.htm

I'm leaning away from paper backed; I've looked at the 2-ply and NBL wood backed. I think that looks promising, but I'd like some other opinions from folks with experience using those.

Can anyone tell me more about the biscuit bit for routers? Got a link?

THX,
Bryan

[David Ellis]

I don't think you will find other's in your neigborhood reading your post, so the likelihood of a quantity order is fairly slim.  I think you are about my 10th customer in Canada in the past 3 years.  My following is small, but ardent.

I haven't tried the hot melt or glue backed veneer.  You certainly could try this, but I think 2 coats of water based contact adhesive will perform equally well.  Contact adhesive is quite easy to use.

If you are ready to purchase good router bits, I suggest you call the gents at www.ridgecarbidetool.com  .  I am pretty sure they have a biscuit bit for router use, but couldn't find it on their web page.  If you decide to order several bits from them, the per-item shipping cost will decrease.  I use their bits and they are VERY high quality.

If you want a nice light colored wood veneer, the Lacewood looks quite nice to my eye.  A few guys have used this with very pleasant results.

Also, if you want to assemble the cabinet without biscuits, this is fine.  I have learned over the past few years that biscuits are great alignment devices, but have little/no audible impact.  I continue to use them for alignment reasons.  They make everything so much easier when tightening the bar clamps.

[DavidS]

Well the work continues in week three.

As of this morning I have the frames glued up for both speakers.  Not sure why it always surprises me that you usually botch the first time you do anything like this - but true to form the first is slightly out of square and glue everywhere and on everything, figured out my work bench isn't level after glueing the first one and then you learn and make the second one better, certainly tidier.  Same goes for jig saw work cutting the first inside frame and then other three were fine.  First box is only slightly out of sqaure and lots of file work generally has everything flat and would guess unless you look close won't notice.  Below are photos of how things look right now.

http://members.shaw.ca/davidspeed/1.jpg" >

http://members.shaw.ca/davidspeed/5.jpg">

Purchased some tools this week.  First was a ryobi plunge router that I purchased on ebay for an amazing $35 US - hasn't arrived yet but hoping it is as advertised (coming from Toronto).  Also picked up a used variable speed jig saw - Black and Decker - for $30 cdn at used tool place.  Was a great purchase, worked great once I got the hang of things.  Would have been smart to do some practice before diving in upon arriving home thinking I know how this thing works.  Guy at store included some blades that were for cutting counter tops - didn't work real well some mdf blades from Home Depot were a big improvement.

Current  project budget:

up to last week     $1028
router    $60 included shipping
Jig saw  $30
miscellaneous supplies - glue, blades, sand paper $50

Current money spent on 1801's  $1168 canadian dollars

Thanks to Salva (from Spain?) who has been posting his photos here - really helped with visualizing the inside support pieces.  He has some new photos up on his link with finished piano black boxes.  Very nice.  Hoping he will post each phase of his project until done.

Whats Ahead:

1.  glue side panels to boxes - probably next weekend.  Still thinking of maybe renting a biscuit joiner to do this for the day.  Sounds good for lining stuff up.

2.  do some practice with the new router which should arrive this week

3.  hopefully chose my wood and veneer.  Still thinking maple because it is available locally with support from friend at finishing store.  Would like to do some research and reading on stains and finishing.  Again not something I have done much although Donna will probably be called on to help out here.

4.  Speaker kit should arrive this week.

5.  23rd wedding anniversary this coming weekend plus working Saturday so probably won't get much done this coming weekend.  Heading to the world famous Sooke Harbour house Sunday and Monday on wild west coast of Vancouver Island (next stop Japan if you were to head west).

My question of the week went straight to David - he replies very promptly.  Was curious in photos regarding 3 inch square mdf port support mounted on back panel.  He says this was old design - guess port is now pvc tube that has outside flange.  Will be curious to see how this works once it arrives.

Finally music on the cd player.  Think I mentioned I have been going through my 500 or so cd collection in alphabetical order.  Up to K and was first time in a long time played Kinks - To the Bone.  Always one of my favourite bands and pretty decent sounding cd.  Its a live cd that is always popular on road trips and large group gatherings for obvious big hits but reminded me about how great 1978's Misfits was - kind of came from left field from a band everyone thought was done.  Have to think Ray Davies still has a solid album somewhere in the future.  A couple of Diana Kralls (who I haven't quite got into) and Magdalena Kozena's wonderful French Arias are next.

Might be two weeks before I post next.  Thanks for all the great replies and related posts in this area.

[DavidS]

Okay, progress has really slowed down at Chateau Vitesse.  Combination of busy at work, busy on the weekends and still waiting for new ebay router to arrive has just about stopped progress.  What has happened since last post:

1.  have side panels glued on.  Ended up renting a biscuit joiner and cut slots for biscuits using a rental machine.  Wasn't cheap but did pretty good job with it.  Cost to rent for an evening was $28.  Found a pretty good biscuit joining 101 article at Fine Woodworking website that gave me the basics and help guide my work.  Link to site:  

http://www.taunton.com/finewoodworking/pages/fw_feat_video.asp

2.  Wow did a pretty major about face on my lumber and veneer.  Went shopping thinking I would get maple - in fact really liked birds eye maple.  But just couldn't find any 10 x maple lumber here in Victoria so ended up purchasing a very nice piece of Hondoras Mahogany.  Had it cut and planed to size at shop I purchase from - cost was another $32.  Mahogany veneer seems pretty easy to come by -  may still purchase on line but waiting for this router forever has me sour on online purchases.  Key point of mahogany was also that it is easier wood to work with vs. maple.

3.  My kit arrived.  My youngest son wondered what kind of bomb I was building when I proudly showed him.  Hmmm looks like complex stuff and am probably more nervous about this now that I have it than before.  Used the port to cut the port holes in the back of the speakers.  Sorry no pictures this week.

4.  Without a router I have been using my orbital sander with 60 grit paper to trim the side panels.  Wow a slow go and sawdust everywhere!


Current Project Budget:

1.  Amount spent at end of last period  $1168
2.  Router  $28
3.  Mahongany $32

Current Total:  $1228

What Comes next:

1.  finish trimming the side panels
2.  acquire and apply veneer - still haven't decided re: the water soluable vs. solvent based.  See the Fine Woodworking site has a video on this as well that I should check out.
3.  glue mahogany and trim

Questions:

1.  crossovers are a complete mystery to me.  I understand a signal comes into the speaker from the amp and is basically sent to the two drivers.  Think the crossover(s?) filters out the signal that you don't want to go to each of the two drivers.  As noted in previous posts I am pretty good at internet research but have to admit I just don't understand how this mess of wire, inductors, capacitors, resistors, and little blue and red things does this.  Any simple lessons or reference reading that doesn't require an electrical engineering degree to read and understand.

2.  have read David's instructions about circle jigs and cutting the driver holes in the lumber.  It seems simpler to draw the circle, use a jig saw to rough cut, and use router or even file to finish off.  It seems the tweeter or woofer overlaps the hole and hides any rough edges.  The router route with jig seems more complicated than this need be or am I misguided here as well?

Music - deviated this week from my alphabetical tour ... the Pixies played a reunion show in town this week.  In the mid-80's I had a foot each squarely in the REM and Pixies camp.  Pulled out a couple of old Pixies cds (surfer rosa and doolittle) - what an amazing and original and fun band.  Remember first learning this music as the cds came out and how there were delicious smiles around each corner with this music.  Getting too old for earache live rock shows but was wishing I had got tickets for the show.  Must have been great...and somehow Frank Black, Kim Deal, etc. just haven't solo been a fraction of the whole of the Pixies.  True test - my 17 year old son even said - who are they - that sounds cool!  Way better than your normal stuff.  Into my L's now - next up another hidden gem Ronnie Lane.

Next time photos - thanks for the answers to questions.

[DavidS]

Quick update ... waiting on more veneer.

http://members.shaw.ca/davidspeed/11.jpg">

[DavidS]

Photo from last night - speakers to date.  Yep it is intentionally from a ways back, sandpaper and finishing much needed.

http://members.shaw.ca/davidspeed/12.jpg">


Some comments regarding my work to date:

1.  Yes I am slow.  It shouldn't take this long but first off for me all this is new.  For example I glued some veneer to one speaker that had to be removed - this took a week to figure out that the work was terrible and then to figure out how to remove.  Ended up using a small hand plane to remove material because Dave is right once attached it is attached.  There was an excellent link on the veneering thread that was like a Veneering 101 type link.  Would love to have read this before I started veneering.

2.  I spent the big bucks and purchased a jasper circle jig.  Once I figured out how to attach to my ryobi router it was cool to use.  Again Dave is right - practice practice practice before cutting the real thing.  Even then I had a drill bit break off when drilling jig hole on second speaker.  Had to improvise again.  Cutting the speaker holes was more nerve wracking than a 6 foot put in a golf tournament.

3.  My veneer work is pretty weak.  I had speaker boxes in the living room in the semi dark admiring the nice grain on the mahogany baffle in the dusky light and Donna walks in and adds - well the best they will look is home made...but I guess that is what you are trying to achieve right?  Ouch - really counting bigtime on my orbital router, that watco finish, and the yet to be purchased round over bit to give me some kind of quality finish.

4.  one night was feeling overwhelmed by this project ... think it was after spending 2 hours removing veneer and the good people at soundstage publish a review of my current speakers.  Have to admit they are sounding great these days with my Musical Fidelity amp and Jolida cd player.  http://www.soundstage.com/revequip/paradigm_studio20_v3.htm  
What am I thinking spending $1500 on home made speakers when everything sounds just great the way it is.

5.  The budget - well I've spent more than I thought I would.

As of last time:  $1228

Jasper jig - $70
More veneer x 2 $35
glue  $18
router bits  $40

Total to date $1391

6.  Whats next:

need to purchase round over bit - its a pricey one - think last time I checked about $40.  Then lots of sanding and watco (do you think this is the right finish for mahogany?  suggestions / comments are welcome!)  Finally getting to electronics.  Must admit I have read Dave's instructions regarding the crossovers and I understand italian better.  Sure I will figure it out.

7.  I think that soldering is pretty straight forward but my recall is I haven't done this since grade 10 shop .... lets see that was 1970.  Not much recall as a matter of fact maybe it isn't so straightforward..will try and find a soldering 101 primer.

8.  Dave is right - sawdust is everywhere...works well with hair gel to give you that nice thick head of hair look though.  Will have to remember this as I move into my 50's.

9.  finally its all about the music - one oldy and one new one that I am currently enjoying:

oldy - Lyle Lovett's 1988 Pontiac
new one - Wil Oldam's new Best of Bonnie Prince Billy - wow this grows on you.  Genius like the Coen Brothers are genius.

10.  Projected fire em up date (I can see the light and its on the other side of that port):

July 10, 2004

Enjoy the photos.

David

[salva]

Hi, I'm interested in the process you used to apply the veneer and how good or bad did it ended up.

- What type of veneer and glue you used ?

- Any problem with bubbles  ?

- Did you take any photos of the process of the apply of the venner ?

Salva

[rosconey]

Donna walks in and adds - well the best they will look is home made...but I guess that is what you are trying to achieve right? Ouch


-lol

[DavidS]

Unfortunately no closeups of the veneering but some comments:

  The first veneer I purchased was from local finishing store and think had been sitting around the store for 3-4 years.  It was split, dry, brittle.  I didn't know any better just thought this was the way it was supposed to be.  It got worse as I cut it and tried to fit.  It was single ply.

  I used the smelly contact cement.  It wasn't so bad as I worked just outside my workbench area....aside from the very large spider that got stuck on one piece of veneer.  I figured out the key was two coats and actually following the instructions and letting cement dry up before applying.  This is not intuitive and wasting veneer and paste (both expensive) doing test runs was not a real option.

  I had lots of bubbles in my work.  The veneer I removed was seriously bubbled and unacceptable.  Main blame was not following directions by letting glue set up.

  I also had lots of chip outs with my router.  Once I trimmed up too soon...I would leave glue and veneer at least a day to set up before trimming up.  My blade also seemed to quickly get dull (although the same blade was a wood chewing machine on my real wood mahogany baffle).  This then involves whole new territory - try to patch with incredibly sticking glue and little slivers of veneer.  In the finished product I have some bubbling and chipouts and am curious how this will look once I have sanded and finished.  Will try and include some closeups.

  I met an old acquaintance working at another wood store and she ordered direct from the factory new veneer.  Wow - this stuff was easy to work with and came in sizes that were easy to work with.  It was night and day once I had some experience and this nice product.  

  Finally I read my last post and what a pile of negative stuff re: rosconey's comment.  Honestly this is like a great novel.  Lots of trials and tribulations, lots of mistakes and occasional cursing but the project begins to haunt you.  A day doesn't go by that I don't visit the basement to just see how they look (the same as yesterday says Donna!).  Yep.  I read the instructions most days just to remember what lies ahead.  I have learned lots and know I will be sad once the adventure is over and all I can do is listen to them.  Maybe a very male thing to do in the spring but can see how this building stuff can get in the blood.