[woodsyi]

I had Teles on that unit.  It thought they worked well.  BTW, you are supposed to be able to do some minor tweaks to make it even better.  You can research that.  And, I am sure a Felix on the PS wouldn't hurt either.   

[etcarroll]

Jerry -

Correct on all points, and you were more than a little help! 

<snip>
Regarding Etcarroll's original post about the Jasmine, he deleted/ended it because he found a phono stage that work for him in "his" system. He is
very satisfied with his decision which I am glad to say I helped a little bit
with it. We had two GTG to listen to several phono stages, one at a members
house who had a real high end piece. It was obvious that you get better
sound with larger investments. We had another GTG at my house where we listened to the Jasmine and his lower cost unit the Jasmine did sound better
even with my set up not optimized yet. He then had another GTG at his house
with his system and had time to listen to the EAR 834P in "his" system (synergy right) and I am sure he felt the difference in cost was worth purchasing the EAR. I am happy that he took the time and effort to fiqure it out, I could not go to his house so we could not do a comparison in his system.
Anyhow I know he is enjoying his vinyl more and that is what it is all about! <snip>

[etcarroll]

I had Teles on that unit.  It thought they worked well.  BTW, you are supposed to be able to do some minor tweaks to make it even better.  You can research that.  And, I am sure a Felix on the PS wouldn't hurt either.   

I have a length of DH Labs power cord, I'm thinking of an inline Felix.

Called EAR in England, they are sending me the schematic so I can investigate some add'l tweaks.

Who put the copper shielding in the unit, and what's the grey-white fabric covering the copper?

[woodsyi]

The Chair Guy put some additional damping/shielding on the inside.  ERS paper?

[neobop]

Correct _ I bought the EAR, and closed the Jasmine thread as it was no longer needed to me, never considered others would want to continue the conversation. Mea culpa!

This subject - synergy - is my next undertaking. The EAR came with EH tubes, but I'll be pulling them in favor of a trio of NOS Mullards, to match the pair in my Purity pre, looking for tube synergy/matching there.

Next up will be my tt. I have an older Denon DP52F, it has seen a pair of DL-301 carts, right now an Ortofon MC25E, but it's just not quite 'there'. I'm tempted to get a DL-301 MK II. But, I'm open to other carts as well, I'd love to trial a Shelter 501.

What I need to understand is the synergy/matching of cart to tonearm, can anyone recommend a good whitepaper/discussion of this topic?

Gene

Do you plan on changing the table, or just the cart?
Big difference in all the considerations. You have another consideration now. What will sound better with the 834P.

You'll find plenty of advice on compliance/arm matching, but good combos sonically are more of a trial and error thing. I suspect you're at the right place to consider the possibilities.
neo

[etcarroll]

I was thinking the cart only at first, though like with the EAR, I'm open to a quality, used table.

Unemployed at the moment, have to watch the cash outflow.

EDIT: So would it be safe to say folks start out by listening to an assortment of carts and arms till the find a combo they like the sound of, then refine that - vs. - using a formula first like this relative frequency one in order to ascertain proper compliance;
rf = 159 / sqrt ((eff. mass + cart weight + fastener weight) * (compliance))

[TheChairGuy]

The Chair Guy put some additional damping/shielding on the inside.  ERS paper?

Yup, Stillpoints ERS Clothe added: http://www.tnt-audio.com/accessories/ers_cloth_e.html

[etcarroll]

Yup, Stillpoints ERS Clothe added: http://www.tnt-audio.com/accessories/ers_cloth_e.html

Thanks.

[neobop]

I want to bring this to the attention of everybody here. I can't remember if this was posted before, but apparently people are receiving their orders even if it takes awhile:
http://www.cometsupply.com/?mn=DENON

This is not a recommendation, just a great price. Seems like it took 6 months for someone to get a DL-S1, but apparently now they have at least a few in stock.
neo

[bacobits1]

I just got the Denon DL103R in a little over 2 weeks from Comet Supply.
Yes, the best prices on the Net.
They do not do international orders.
If you are out of the country you cannot access the page on their site.
I have a DL301MKII on order for a gentleman in GB. Shhhhhh

D

[pumpkinman]

I just got the Denon DL103R in a little over 2 weeks from Comet Supply.
Yes, the best prices on the Net.
They do not do international orders.
If you are out of the country you cannot access the page on their site.
I have a DL301MKII on order for a gentleman in GB. Shhhhhh

D

I bought my DL301MKII from them in Nov. it tooks 7 weeks to arrive. 

[neobop]

I was thinking the cart only at first, though like with the EAR, I'm open to a quality, used table.

Unemployed at the moment, have to watch the cash outflow.

EDIT: So would it be safe to say folks start out by listening to an assortment of carts and arms till the find a combo they like the sound of, then refine that - vs. - using a formula first like this relative frequency one in order to ascertain proper compliance;
rf = 159 / sqrt ((eff. mass + cart weight + fastener weight) * (compliance))

ET,
You mentioned the Shelter 501 II previously. I'm not sure if the match up with your arm would be that good. Even if your Denon has some kind of Q damping, I suspect you'd need a more substantial arm to get the best out of the 501. I'm not positive about this. Maybe a 501 owner could comment.

The Denon 301 II is around $170 at Comet. I think the compliance is unchanged. There's a new AT LOMC for around the same money that's said to be very nice and much more laid back than some other ATs.
http://www.lpgear.com/Merchant2/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Store_Code=LG&Product_Code=ATF3III&Category_Code=A3

I remembered that testimonial from the guy who retired his Salsa and liked the ATF3, when you mentioned your Ortofon. Maybe it would be prudent right now to make a move like that or a new 301. The Shelter is 5 or 6 times the price and I suspect you'll want a whole new set-up. I'm thinking that for under $200, you could get something right now that would be more enjoyable on a daily basis and should work nicely on your table.

When you find out what arms are used successfully with particular carts, the compliance match-up info comes along with it. There are other considerations regarding arm construction, bearings, etc. I think that most of the more expensive MCs tend to reveal shortcomings or maybe I should say inappropriate pairings with the record player they're mounted on. On the other hand, I suspect that a DL-S1 or a 304 might work quite well. The output is extremely low on these two and I don't know about matching up with your 834P. That might be a serious problem and should be investigated first.
neo

[etcarroll]

Neo -

Thanks for the feedback. Pman has been after me to upgrade my table, looks like that's in the cards for me down the road.

Gene

[BPoletti]

A nice combination I'm using consists of a Lyra Clavis da Capo, Jelco SA-750D, and a Herron VTPH-1mc.  IMO, these components should work well together.  One of the cartridges used to voice the original VTPH-1mc was the a Lyra Parnassus, the big brother of the Clavis d. C.  The Jelco's arm mass is pretty much dead-on for the Clavis d. C. 

Don't have much to use for table comparison.  It's originally a VPI TNT but with a different, smaller acrylic plinth and sits on cones.  Seems to be as good or better than its early TNT heritage. 

[neobop]

That sounds like a really cool combo. Did you just try the Jelco, or did you hear about this pairing from somebody else? I used to see quite a few MMTs on VPIs. They say the 750d is better.

I know Herron owners love their electronics. Is yours the one with 1M ohm  input impedance? It must sound great with your Lyra.
neo

[BPoletti]

That sounds like a really cool combo. Did you just try the Jelco, or did you hear about this pairing from somebody else? I used to see quite a few MMTs on VPIs. They say the 750d is better.

I know Herron owners love their electronics. Is yours the one with 1M ohm  input impedance? It must sound great with your Lyra.
neo

I had read some comments about the Jelco on Audiogon.  It sounded like it might be an upgrade over the Micro Seiki MA-505 I was using.  I checked the mass and did the math on mass vs. cart compliance.  It was a winner.  It is better than the 505 but lacks some of its features.  Also have an AT-OC9 which I know is really good with the Herron unit.  IMO it's close, but not quite up to the Clavis d. C.  But that's for another discussion.

I don't know what the input impedance is for the VTPH1.  Mine's an early unit, one of the first five built.  Pretty much hasn't been touched since I got it new from Keith Herron. 

I did have the opportunity to participate in the listening sessions when the VTPH-1 was voiced so I have some familiarity with it prior to production.  Interesting experience.  Lots of stories.   

I guess I'm one of the Herron owners that love their Herron electronics.  I have a VTPH-1mc, a VTSP-1a and six M-150 amps.

 

[bastlnut]

hallo,

i have acquired a few new items which are doing service for the moment as i evaluate each.
i am basing the system around some B&W DM603 speakers.
these speakers need power to sound good, and they do not like to play quietly.
had a Technics SU-VX700 powering them which did ok, but too bass oriented to really enjoy.....and the amp needs some service.
back to the 'old faithful' Electrocompaniet pre and Revox A740 power amp, nothing is too power hungry for this combination.
the pre did not do well with the Thorens TD 320 and Empire MC5M cartridge, so inserted my Luxman 503 integrated amplifier which is doing only preamp duty.
this is another beast. not so frequency extreme oriented, but the middle octaves are to die for.
the B&W speakers always seemed slow and lacking bite and leading edges, but the Luxman saved the day......it is one the Paravicini Luxman.
i would say that all music between 40hz and 16-17khz is really great.....except for the distortion that the speakers add......minimal really but still there.
here i noticed that the cartidge was not so even, so opened the turntable up and checked all the wiring....the blue headshell wire has developed a larger than normal resistance and capacitance.....not that it matters withe a MC cartridge.
this change did cause great improvements. i installed some all new heashell leads and this gave me a universal 24,5 ohm ± a little bit between channels and a huge improvement.
new headshell wires and new RCA connectors solved all problems and it now sounds great.

i had reservations about listening to the system at such high volume....not really loud but louder than i wanted, and the distortion was able to be identified.
it bothered me.....
swapped in my Triangle Norma speakers which always work great with the Luxman when used as an integrated amp....so the Revox disappeared.....and the SQ got seriously good.
ok, the Norma speakers could not offer the extreme low frequencies of the B&W, but between 50hz and 25khz there are many high end speakers that can not hold its water in comparison.
now, all speakers were bi-wired. speaker cables were changed for better SQ.
now i heard how the tonearm was holding things up.
it was not because the tonearm was inferior, but one heard the change of direction of the pivot.
i am used to listening to unipivot tonearms, and this set up made the hiccup that a gimbal bearing causes evident.

i know that few have such a selection of high end equipment just waiting to be used, but this is the case and point of synergy.
finding what works and sounds best together.
diagnostic ability plays a major role, and one must simply have the experience.

there are too many variables in a system to be able to predict which component will preform to there best in a combination.
you simply have to try it.

i am sorry if it offends anyone that i am ignoring all that has previously been posted,
but this is about synergy between components.....
so, building a system.......and this is what high end is about.
if one has budget considerations, then use your experiences to your advantage.
determine what works for you and upgrade when your budget allows....but not with budget components.
get the best that you can and work from there.

is this a rant or something useful?
i guess i have a problem of limiting what i have to work with and am not very considerate of those with budget limitations.
one needs to have some capital to work with, either selling what is lying around or stretching the envelope.

regards,
bas

[neobop]

Point well taken Bas. We all have different levels of experience and somewhat different goals. Sometimes I'm not looking for the utmost finesse or resolution for some old or poorly recorded albums. I might deliberately use a more forgiving preamp with tone controls or a record player set up to sound nice, but not the the most resolving. That's not usually the case, but I also think that a temporary intermediate step, sideways, sometimes makes sense.

I've learned not to prejudge combinations of components based on their perceived individual worth. Sometimes the whole is greater than the sum of its parts. That's part of what this thread is about. Assuming your goal is to have the best, highest resolution and presentation possible, you're right. Sometimes you might just want to play a regular record, or an irregular one, and have it sound listenable. I used to make a living helping people figure out how to achieve their goals with their systems. Those goals are often very different. Believe it or not, some people don't aspire to having the capabilities of your equipment. Those that do, usually have to make choices along the way that fits in with their immediate needs and long term goals. Like you say, pieces can always be sold when you're ready.
neo

[bastlnut]

hallo,

there are many methods to a goal, and many do not have the same goal.
i recently installed a really top system in a friends holiday Chalet.
at first it was somewhat budget, but had synergy.
he wanted to have a valve...tube system because of all it is propped up to be.
i could have done it for less, and tried, but it had to be valve equipment!
it does sound amazing now with the valve amp and MF LPS phono stage.
could i do it for less, sure but it looks so much better now!
emotion plays a larger than accepted role in what we buy.
do valve electronics offer a better sound than transistor stuff?
it is up to each person that is willing to lay down some of his hard earned income.
my friend wanted it to sound amazing and better and to have light bulbs doing it.
he is much happier with his valve amplifiers than if i organized non valve electronics.
he hears things that he has never heard before.
CD has become a vintage source material.
have i become a dogma specialist?
he heard the difference in the signal cables and even the power cables that i brought to test.
he bought all the expensive stuff. he did not even know which cables switched to.
he had to ask what i did. when i went back to the inferior cables, he heard it but did not know what i did.
he confirmed the result to the sound that i heard every time that i changed something.
ok, he would still never claim that he heard an improvement or not, but he put his money where his mouth is.
he bought the stuff that made a differnce to the sound. for the better.

now i have to find a TT that can accommodate 2 tonearms, one for everyday listening and one for mono records from the 50s and 60s.
my 3 arm beast does this easily, but it is not so easy with wishes that must fit a budget.

regards,
bas

[neobop]

Bas,
It must be nice. That was an easy one. Your friend with the vacation home has the means to do pretty much whatever he wants. I had customers like that. Sometimes they would put limits on what they would spend, but if they heard or saw something exceptional the limits would go out the door, along with the new equipment. For every guy like that there were a half dozen guys that wanted gear like that, but couldn't afford it. Those were the guys that didn't have a Porsche or Ferrari. They had a Camaro or a souped up Honda.

There's an art to putting together budget or mid priced pieces that work well together. Price tags often don't reflect the real value of audio gear. I hope this thread is a learning experience for everyone who reads it, and most of all me. I'm far removed from my high end days, but I'm interested in what's out there today. For example, I never heard a Jelco 750 D or L. It's a budget arm I guess. They cost 5 or $600. I have no reason to doubt that it's better than a MMT. Jelco also made many other arms, some high end. I wonder how they would compare? These are high mass arms and some are using them with med cu carts? It's actual users who might give us a hint to questions like this.

Don't get me wrong, your input is valuable. We all have experience with different stuff. If I had the money I'd have a Teres DD table with a Phantom and maybe a Soundsmith strain gauge or a VDH. But in the mean time.....
neo