[neobop]

This thread is partially inspired by the padlock on the Jasmine thread. Hopefully, it will go beyond one phono pre and be about combinations that work exceptionally well. This can be really helpful when considering a change of a component(s). Is a particular cart a good match for your arm, or how about using it with your phono stage?
All too often, IMO, people reach conclusions based on limited experience. Knowing in advance what works for others, might make it easier to get a great combo without having to buy multiple pieces of equipment, to find out.

About the Jasmine/103 combo - I've read that the 103 sounds better using a transformer, for some reason, and that the MC section of the Jasmine isn't nearly as good as the MM section. I really don't know about either of these statements. My experience is with other Denon carts. Although I have a 103d, it needs a new tip and I haven't been using it. But the other Denon carts might benefit from unusual loading. I participated in a bike (multiple user evaluations) with the DL-S1, along with John TCG, DaveyW, and Bastlnut. Results varied considerably and I think it was gain stage synergy that accounted for the difference. I read in another forum that someone is using a 40 ohm load (straight in) on the cart, and loves it. I never would have thought of that, cause the cart's resistance is 40 ohms. Now that I think of it, someone said that he's using a 20 ohm load on an OC9II. I believe that cart's resistance is 17 ohms. I heard the potential with the DL-S1. At times it sounded first rate. But then it would sound like the overtones were emphasised and acoustic music would sometimes have a goosed up sound. This is typical for an inappropriate load. Time limitations and lack of resistor selection  prevented further experimentation. Phono stages sound different and the "right" load can vary.

There are some here with particular expertise with certain products. BaMorin can tell you about arms and decks that may or may not match up well with a Grado. I'm sure many others have experience with certain components, that might not be commonly known.

This MM phono stage was raved about on another forum. I thought some might find it interesting.
http://cgi.ebay.com/LCR-Phono-Preamplifier-Lounge-Audio_W0QQitemZ280646778284QQcategoryZ12050QQcmdZViewItemQQ_trksidZp4340.m263QQ_trkparmsZalgo%3DSIC%26its%3DI%252BC%26itu%3DUCI%252BIA%252BUA%252BFICS%252BUFI%26otn%3D10%26pmod%3D280644843029%26ps%3D63%26clkid%3D7867344787456196297

neo

[DaveyW]

Blimey Neo,
This is a mammoth tin you're trying to lift the lid on with worms a plenty.
Re. The DL-S1, in addition to phono stage matching, our differences were probably also down to arms, system and personal tastes.
It remains the best MC I have had on the Ittok, by some margin.

Re. Little snippets of "what works for others".
There's much I could chip in from my side but for the time being I'll kick off with this.
I have generally found HOMC's perform much better at significantly lower loads than the stock 47k ohms that they are supposedly designed for.
One example - I found that the DV 20XH was totally transformed at 1k ohms, really tightened up the bottom end and opened up the mids.
This was regardless if MM stage I used (4 of them).

Look forward to hearing others experiences and preferences.
Cheers,
Dave

[neobop]

Blimey Neo,
This is a mammoth tin you're trying to lift the lid on with worms a plenty.
Re. The DL-S1, in addition to phono stage matching, our differences were probably also down to arms, system and personal tastes.
It remains the best MC I have had on the Ittok, by some margin.

Re. Little snippets of "what works for others".
There's much I could chip in from my side but for the time being I'll kick off with this.
I have generally found HOMC's perform much better at significantly lower loads than the stock 47k ohms that they are supposedly designed for.
One example - I found that the DV 20XL was totally transformed at 1k ohms, really tightened up the bottom end and opened up the mids.
This was regardless if MM stage I used (4 of them).

Look forward to hearing others experiences and preferences.
Cheers,
Dave

Dave,
I think it's more like a bunch of little tins. Lids can be lifted one, or a few at a time. Everybody benefits from these forums, and the experiences of others. You of all people are a shining example of helping others get an idea of what to expect.

I'm convinced that the difference in results with the DL-S1 is because of phono stage differences. I know arms, speakers etc are all different, but I've heard most of your samples and that's my conclusion. I too, heard what the cart can do. I'm quite sure that I would be glowing about it if I used one of my other phono stages. They all sound different.

I completely agree about HOMC. I tried that with the DL-160 as you might remember. Only I wound up around 8 or 9K, and you were around 1K. Phono stage differences!! LOL this can be fun. Even more fun possibly, is hearing about stuff that you really have no experience with. Or, maybe somebody had an experience with a component that isn't the same as what others say. Worms can be beneficial. They help the soil and are great for fishing.
neo

[orthobiz]

Blimey Neo,
It remains the best MC I have had on the Ittok,
Cheers,
Dave

Blimey, a fellow Linnie!

Sorry for the mini-hijack

Paul

[DaveyW]

Blimey, a fellow Linnie!
Sorry for the mini-hijack
Paul

Yes! I bought my well cared for Sondek/Ittok LVII off a mate 5 years ago
He attempted to give up on vinyl during a down sizing period

That lasted less than a year. 

He's been through 3 replacement decks since then, it's funny how it gets hold of you eh!

Bringing it back to topic - There's a bit of an (Audio) Circle here 

He's currently running the DV20XH that I referred to in my initial response.

He originally had an Ortofon 2B Blue and a Denon DL 110, but his system was a little on the bright side with these two carts.
I knew he'd like the the DV, especially loaded down.

He kept the DV and also preferred it at 1k Ohms after checking at a few other loads
That was a couple of years ago - He's still spinning this on his Gyrodec/RB300

Cheers
Dave

[neobop]

Don't worry about staying on topic in this thread. Synergy applies to just about any combo of components.

It is interesting how loading effects differ with various MCs. The Dynevector seems bass oriented. Loading it down seems to tighten up the bass, rather than reign in the top. This observation is based entirely on your samples, Dave. General expectations about loading results go out the window with MCs it seems. It also seems that loading down either a HO or LOMC, tends to address the area that needs taming. Maybe this is wishful thinking.

I had an LP12 in the mid '80s. It was my first really high end table. I liked it a lot. This was pre valhalla board, so it ran just a tad fast. Gave everything a great feel of timing/pace, even if it was contrived. But the hassle and expense of upgrading it, really put me off. Then they starting offering improvements every couple yrs, it seemed. I was in the biz anyway so I decided to dump it. I got a Goldmund direct drive. Perfect speed forever!
 
neo

[bacobits1]

With the magnitude of knowledge just gushing forth here I'm overwhelmed.


D

[bastlnut]

hallo,

i am all about system synergy. it is a hard learned experience in audiophilia.
it is so much more than just finding components that work well together.
some just need a differnt cable to make them synergize! LOL
what the components are placed on, and which equipment bases that are between component and rack/mount.
how do you know what to combine. experience or trial and error.
you just have to experiment to find out if it will work or not, and sometimes try variations to the basic set up.
even with experience you still have to try it.
a change can increase the focus of the whole, but the focus and control of the happenings can take the life and air out of the music.
apples or oranges....

reading opinions on a component can be misleading as well.
having heard from friends and acquaintances that they like something more than i do is a case in point.
we do rely on what we research on the web, being that we can no longer pop down to the local high end hifi store around the corner.
so, we read a lot. a great deal has no relevance for us even though it is the same equipment that we have.
there is no one who is in the same situation that you are when they describe their opinions on a component.
case in point, the Denon DL-S1....those of you involved know who you are.
it is an accomplished cartridge. it also has the general Denon traits....which i am not a fan of.
not while the traits are bad, but because i am used to higher end stuff.
my daily cartridge is the Transfiguration Aria, almost double the cost of the Denon.
it does everything better. so i will find something to criticize. is it bad? no. is the Denon bad? no.
just not up to my expectations, which are admittedly quite high.
i also have the system to make the most of the sound quality as well.
i have found it is the little things that matter, the details, the periphery.
i do have experience in budget gear, i repair it as well.
do i listen to it at home? no, not even in my Atelier.
i am just lucky enough to be able to acquire such components.

you never try, you never know.

regards,
bas

[neobop]

Bas,
Can't disagree about anything you said, but speaking in generalities really doesn't get us anywhere. Case in point, the DL-S1. Maybe you're reluctant to rehash an old evaluation, or say something negative about what has become a very popular cart. I've read your feelings about Denon carts in general. I don't think anyone will be offended by your opinions. We had similar results with the DL-S1 regarding acoustic music.

It is what it is, but I feel that I wasn't able to get the cart optimally loaded due to time restraints. I was working long hours at the time and it was difficult to expend the energy required, after work. Changing loads in my AHT is a little tedious. The DC offset has to be reset manually. There is no automatic circuit that nulls this for you. Anyway, loading somewhere between 200 and 400 ohms seemed best at the time, but I never entirely got rid of the emphasised overtones. Although I didn't really try it, I think that had I used one of my other MC stages at 100 ohms, results would have been very different. Overall though, I can see what you're saying regarding a more expensive cart, especially with classical music.

B50 gave me a DL-304 with a busted cantilever. I sent it to Soundsmith and had a ruby/LC installed. I never lived with a stock 304, but my impression is that the new cantilever and tip gave more control and accuracy. When I was experimenting with loading, as I approached 100 ohms from a higher value, it got brighter. It's interesting that some people are loading the DL-S1 at 30 to 40 ohms. It could be that as you get even closer to the cart's impedance,  balance is restored. But I think this will reduce the already low output. I did get some nice results at around 275 ohms with the 304. A few acoustic jazz records sounded great. But I always had the feeling it could get too bright at any moment. Maybe 30 ohms would have been the magic number. To be honest, my Genesis 1000 is a better cart. At 100 ohms it has all the detail, flat response, and a natural presentation that reflects the recording. It doesn't sound sweet or romantic unless the recording is that way. At least that's my feeling. I prefer it to a Koetsu or other artificially sweetened carts. That's me - my preference. I would take a VDH over a Koetsu any day of the week. The Denons are a little strange with relatively high impedance for a LOMC, and very low output.
neo

[woodsyi]

And I wouldn't do without my Koetsus.  That's the beauty of this hobby.  One man's treasure is another man's garbage and vice versa. 

[Gopher]

About the Jasmine/103 combo - I've read that the 103 sounds better using a transformer, for some reason, and that the MC section of the Jasmine isn't nearly as good as the MM section. I really don't know about either of these statements.

Are you suggesting without any experience that the excitement many users have had with respect to the Jasmine/103 is misguided?  I've listened to the pairing in my own rig with both of my carts, a Zu103 and a Denon 103D and the pair is special indeed.  I also happen to own a Bob's Device Cinemag SUT and can attest to the merits of the Jasmine/103.  With in the mix better depth and palpability is achieved, but that doesn't take away from the pairing directly into the Jasmine.  It also does not mean the MC section of the Jasmine is dwarfed by the MM input. 

I don't know where you got this information, but its not really fair to repeat this crap if you don't have experience of your own.  I've spoken to two individuals with ears I trust who have compared the Jasmine's MC section directly to a Manley Steelhead (two separate independent tests)  in the same system and preferred the Jasmine by a significant margin.  I have not heard the Steelhead, but having actually experienced the piece of equipment its being contrasted with, I have a basis for comment...

[neobop]

Are you suggesting without any experience that the excitement many users have had with respect to the Jasmine/103 is misguided?  I've listened to the pairing in my own rig with both of my carts, a Zu103 and a Denon 103D and the pair is special indeed.  I also happen to own a Bob's Device Cinemag SUT and can attest to the merits of the Jasmine/103.  With in the mix better depth and palpability is achieved, but that doesn't take away from the pairing directly into the Jasmine.  It also does not mean the MC section of the Jasmine is dwarfed by the MM input. 

I don't know where you got this information, but its not really fair to repeat this crap if you don't have experience of your own.  I've spoken to two individuals with ears I trust who have compared the Jasmine's MC section directly to a Manley Steelhead (two separate independent tests)  in the same system and preferred the Jasmine by a significant margin.  I have not heard the Steelhead, but having actually experienced the piece of equipment its being contrasted with, I have a basis for comment...

Gopher,
I'm not suggesting anything. I'm merely repeating what I've read elsewhere, by other users, just as you're reporting on comparisons with the Steelhead. If you never heard a Steelhead, your comment is somehow more valid because you own the Jasmine? Matter of fact, I did read exactly what I reported, by those who I assume to be actual users, like you.

I didn't write that as a statement of fact, or even my opinion. Obviously, I have no opinion on the this. I wrote that for further comment on these components because I find it interesting and the Jasmine thread is locked. The OP bought an 840P.

Those were separate comments I repeated. One was about the 103 in general and the other was about the Jasmine. Can't you discuss this without the hostile reaction? Must I provide a link for every comment? From the general reaction to the Jasmine, I suspect it's a great value. Of course this is not based on experience.
neo

 

[bacobits1]

Correction the Op bought an E.A.R. 834P.


D

[TONEPUB]

Im having great luck with the Denon and ZU103 with the SUT from DecWare, but I've also had particularly good luck with it and the ARC REF 2 phono, but that's a little wacky as far as $$ goes.

Great synergy with the new AVID Pulsus phono stage too....

[neobop]

Correction - EAR 834P.

This statement might seem off the wall after a couple of posts are corrected or deleted. But I think that threads are locked or moved for a variety of different reasons. It seems to me that the Circle is the best forum for finding a balance between freedom to speak your mind, and utter chaos, personal attacks etc.

It was not my intention to denigrate the Jasmine, with my opening remarks. After reading those separate statements on other forums, I was going to ask for comments. When I got here at Vinyl Circle, I saw the thread was ended. I assumed it was ended by the OP. I see a little box underneath that says, Lock this topic.
About the Jasmine; Because of what's been written about it, it might be the #1 giant killer in that price range. Because some people commented on the synergy with the 103/CineMags/Jasmine combo, I thought it might be interesting to explore this further. Because I have an old 103d, the subject interests me. I haven't heard that Lounge MM phono stage (linked above) either. Maybe it's a great value for $185, I don't know. I think the more information we have, and the more user opinions we get, the more we have a basis for an educated guess for our own synergistic goals.
neo

[jtsnead]

If we are all not passionate people would we be involved in this hobby?

That is why on ocasion people will get thier panties in a bunch regarding
how they feel about this or that.

Regarding Etcarroll's original post about the Jasmine, he deleted/ended it because he found a phono stage that work for him in "his" system. He is
very satisfied with his decision which I am glad to say I helped a little bit
with it. We had two GTG to listen to several phono stages, one at a members
house who had a real high end piece. It was obvious that you get better
sound with larger investments. We had another GTG at my house where we listened to the Jasmine and his lower cost unit the Jasmine did sound better
even with my set up not optimized yet. He then had another GTG at his house
with his system and had time to listen to the EAR 834P in "his" system (synergy right) and I am sure he felt the difference in cost was worth purchasing the EAR. I am happy that he took the time and effort to fiqure it out, I could not go to his house so we could not do a comparison in his system.
Anyhow I know he is enjoying his vinyl more and that is what it is all about!

Now to what this thread is about "Synergy" which I feel Neo has a real good point. You have to try different equipment to understand this and make a decision what works for you.

I have the Jasmine which in the past 10 years this is my seventh phono stage.
I will give a short description on each one in order and how it worked or synergized (is that a word?) with my system at that time.

Mod Squad - very good sound but a little grainy and not as open in the soundstage area.

Perraux - not bad but not musical as the Mod Squad

PS Audio GCPH w/ Cullen mods - this really got me back into the vinyl mode
of buying and listening to more records, at this time I was having noise issues meaning I did not want noisy pono playback, this was probally 4 years ago

Modwright SWP - this is when I went all out (cost wise) for me I thought I had to try a tube unit for better sound which it did but I had increased noise issues, it did not have good synergy with my system

Musical Surroundings Nova Phenomana - I really thoght this was it, no noise issues!! but I felt I lost something in the performance it did not draw me in as much but worked very well with the different cartridges I hadat the time

Ray Samuels Nighthawk - again a battery unit without any noise issues, but I felt it was not a step up but a lateral move, I still not get as involved as I had with the PS Audio and Modwright

Jasmine LP 2.0SE - back to an active phono stage no batteries, now let me tell you I went to a battery line stage also at this time, and guess what no noise with an active phono stage, now "SYNERGY". The jasmine rocks the way I want it too and sounds very very good for what it costs!

This is a major point of my post, part of finding the synergy in your system is looking/trying equipment that not only satisfys your love of music but also fits in your budget at the time you are buying it. I would love to have a top notch unit but I can not afford that, so I tried stuff I could afford and found what I like. This not only includes the phono stage but me turntable, tonearm, cartridge, pre/power amp etc.

Since I am going on about my experience's, let me continue, I worked in the hifi business for 14 years, albeit over a decade ago, but I have owned and listened to alot of high end gear and the diminishing returns is a reality.

Since I am talking about vinyl playback my fist good cartridge was a Signet TK-5xe (which I still have), ortofons, sumiko's, dynavextor, lyra, denon and now a Benz Ace SL. I am listening to my old Sumiko Talsiman S with my Jasmine and a Bobs step up and it sounds remarkable for an older cartrige, granted the Benz is better at low level resolution and a little warmer, but very enjoyable with Talisman.

I could go on and on about other end of the chain and my experience's with amps and preamps, but it all comes down to what works right now with my room, speakers, source, amplification and budget. I feel I have the best "Synergy" for my system at this time and place.

Enjoy The Journey,
JT

[woodsyi]

Most excellent comment, Mister. 

When you decorate a room, you have to move furniture and ornaments around a lot until you find the right harmony.  Sometimes you have to remove or replace items.  This Feng shui applies to audio too.  Some really nice items just don't work together. 

[neobop]

Great post JT,
Another example of Jasmine + Cinemags (Bob's step-ups), only this time it's a Talisman S. The Benz Ace is used with the transformer as well?

Of course this brings up questions and other possibilities, some of which might be impossible to answer. Ever try a new piece of gear and think, if I only still had such-in-such it would probably be great?
Was the PS Audio GCPH, Modwright SWP, noisy, or the combo with the line stage? The noise issue seemed to go away with the unnamed battery powered line stage.

For most of us, it's not possible to keep all our old components, even the ones we like, as we make changes. So we make decisions based on results we get with what we have at the time. It's more expensive buying something again after we got rid of it. But if it's the right move, based on results with some new piece, we might be silly not to.

I tried about a million different high end line stages back when I was in the biz. I used to take them home. At that time I had a small room. Even though my cart had .2mV output (Genesis 1000) I could use a passive preamp and have enough gain. I tried just about everything I could, that might float my boat. That included ARC, CJ, Roland Research, Spectral, Levinson, Meitner, Threshold, Forte, NYAL, Vendetta, and a few others. I think there was a VTL piece and a couple other tube units. Most had phono stages so I tried them too. And most were used - traded in, so a couple of times I bought some new tubes. I did like some of them, but they were expensive even at dealer cost or trade-in value. I liked my AHT phono stage more than any of the others, including the Vendetta, which was really good. BTW, this was built in, not the separate phono, but it was supposed to be the same. I wound up getting nothing. C'est la vie.

Now I need a line stage all the time in my bigger room, and some of the time in my smaller room. Hey JT, what's that battery powered line stage?
neo

[jtsnead]

Neo,

The line stage is a Dodd Audio Tube Buffer (get well Gary!) and it is one of the
best pre's I have ever had. I feel that you are right Neo, the noise issues I was having
with the other phono stages was due to a combo of them with an active/ac line stage.
In other people systems they might not have the same noise issues.

With the Benz the Bobs does not make as much of a difference as with the Sumiko, this is when I first got the Bob's, maybe because it has a higher output. I will try it again becuase at the time I was having noise issue with the phono set up and that is why I put on the Sumiko to see if it was the Benz cartridge. It turns out with the Bobs the gain increase picked up noise from my turmtables motor/belt, I had to move the motor farther away from the platter to get rid of it. The Sumiko was sounding so good with the system I have not put the Benz back in. I will maybe today.

Like you Neo I have had alot of pre's from Audible Illusions, Sonic Frontiers, Levinson,
VTL, Cary, Modwright and now the Dodd. I am in a smaller room so gain is not an issue with my sources. Though with tube equipment I did not like hearing tube noise/hiss/ruch etc. and maybe because I am in a small room. I always have liked tubes in the pre section. I also have come to understand which type tubes I like more than others in the pre section, started with the 12ax7, 12au7, 6dj8 types which to me always seem to have the lusher tube type sound, then tried the 5687, 7119 types which have the more accurate almost solid state sound and now I ahve the 6h30 which I feel combines the best of the other tube types, dynamics, imaging and a little warmth.

Also over the years I have come to like the sound of my system more as it has become less complicated I feel you can get really good sound with well designed simple components. This has been a requirement on my part because of income, economy etc..
I have had to downsize my investment in my equipment which has lead me to this understanding. Case in point is hearing how well tube pre's work with class d amps,
so I built a class d amp (ClassDaudio SDS 254) to try with at the time my Modwright tube preamp which with my Joseph Audio speakers the class d amp really connected compared to the Rogue tube amp I was using at the time. The cost of the kit was one seventh the retail of the Rogue.

This brings me to another "synergy" point the advantage of more power to control the speakers you are using. The Rogue sounded great with my speakers but when I put in the ClassDaudio it was a game changer, they really came alive in the low end along with the same type midrange and imaging as the tube amp. I have never gotten into the whole SET high effeciancy speaker stuff probally because I like to listen really loud some times but also want the clear open sound at lower volumes while listening to acoustice jazz, classical quartets etc.. Having greater power available to me allows the best of both of this listening situtations meaning control of the speaker at higher and lower volumes, this was further enhanced when I added a second amplifier board increasing output power from 120 watts to 500 watts per side. What a difference this made mainly in the overall ability for the music to come alive, acoustic upright bass is incredible with the increase in power. Imaging tightened up also hear better out of phase sound out in front, left, right of the speakers. So my point at least in my system is that synergy between the amp and speakers is really important!

Synergy is Key,
JT

[etcarroll]

Correct _ I bought the EAR, and closed the Jasmine thread as it was no longer needed to me, never considered others would want to continue the conversation. Mea culpa!

This subject - synergy - is my next undertaking. The EAR came with EH tubes, but I'll be pulling them in favor of a trio of NOS Mullards, to match the pair in my Purity pre, looking for tube synergy/matching there.

Next up will be my tt. I have an older Denon DP52F, it has seen a pair of DL-301 carts, right now an Ortofon MC25E, but it's just not quite 'there'. I'm tempted to get a DL-301 MK II. But, I'm open to other carts as well, I'd love to trial a Shelter 501.

What I need to understand is the synergy/matching of cart to tonearm, can anyone recommend a good whitepaper/discussion of this topic?

Gene

Correction the Op bought an E.A.R. 834P.


D