[bdiament]

Hi Geardaddy,

...I was looking primarily at the Prism Orpheus.  Many other end users who had done shootouts felt the ULN-8 was too stark and made a lot of material sound less than pleasant.  On a similar note, a computer-based system at the recent Rocky Mountain used a box like yours.  They were playing a lot of hi rez.  Some people felt it was some of the best sound of the show.  Others felt it did not sound good at all and needed a tubed pre-amp, etc.   

I can understand some folks not liking the ULN-8.  In my experience, the better DACs tend to fall into one of two categories:

1. There are those that seem to add "apparent detail" (even if that "detail" is not in the source material).  The generation of spurious harmonics is something the detail crowd seems to enjoy.  I would not argue with what brings a given person listening pleasure.  But this should not be confused with transparency or truth to the input signal.

This group can manifest as what is (to my ears) a quite aggressive sound or one that simply adds a top end "zing" to everything that passes through it.

2. There are those that make everything passing through them "silky smooth", lending a sort of Technicolor warmth (even if that warmth is not in the source material).  These tend to round out the "edges" of much not-so-well-recorded material.  They also round out the edges of very well recorded material.  Again, I'd never argue with what someone likes.  But neither would I confuse it with an honest rendition of the input.

This group too, exhibits varying degrees of the color, from a slight "tan" to an all out "golden" hue.

For my ears, the ULN/LIO-8 is from another category that I find quite new with digital gear:
3. Gear that gets out of the way.  That means it doesn't add "detail" to what is in the original recording; soft recordings will be heard as soft.  It doesn't smooth out edges, so rough recordings will sound rough.

It has been my experience that while "neutrality" and "transparency" are often used words in the audiophile lexicon, a great many listeners (who may not realize it) don't particularly like neutral and transparent when they hear it and thus may not even recognize it as such.

As for power supplies, I referenced the Nordost data (http://www.nordost.com/downloads/New%20Approaches%20To%20Audio%20Measurement.pdf + http://www.stereophile.com/rmaf2010/nordost_and_vertex_measurements/index.html) that showed the effect of cabling and power conditioning on jitter.   I know I have read similar things about the stability of power supplies and jitter and I will thus have to do more homework.  So, what makes a good switching supply?  I know a lot of audiophiles and computer-related manufacturers poo-poo them.

The audiophiles that "poo-poo" switching supplies in general have probably not heard good ones or are simply parroting audiophile dogma.  The manufacturers clearly have vested interests in promoting what they manufacture.

What makes a good switching supply?  I don't know.  B.J., the designer of the Metric Halo gear is probably the person to ask since he has integrated one into his design that has not been bested by some audiophile-approved linear supplies and (outside of the noise spec) wipes the sonic floor with the SLA (sealed lead acid) battery supplies I've tried too.

I respect Nordost's products and have used them for years.  (All the cable in my studio is by Nordost, as are my microphone cables.)  But I learned long ago that isolating a single component that is part of a complex design and trying to make assessments of performance based on that is a path to nowhere.  A certain DAC chip, power supply topology, capacitor, etc. is no indicator of the final result, which can still range anywhere from State of the Art to absolute trash - using the very same parts.

I remember when I was at Atlantic Recording Studios in New York and they purchased a Neve console from George Martin's AIR Studios in London.  This was the same console Paul McCartney used for some early work.  I wondered if some of the "hair" bands that used that console at Atlantic thought it might endow them with some of Paul's musical talents.  ;-}

Best regards,
Barry
www.soundkeeperrecordings.com
www.barrydiamentaudio.com

[Mike Nomad]

Nomad, dense and slightly dull is a perfect description of the Tull recording.  I have also had the "too much information" experience.  The data is somehow not integrated properly and there is a lack of flow or cohesiveness.  I will have to track down the Zappa.  I am a big Zappa fan, but all my recordings disappeared after college.

In light of this discussion, it is funny to watch generation Y and younger buying vinyl.  One of my wife's brothers is actively buying vinyl and wearing his bell bottoms.  I myself missed analog tape by a few years (42 going on 43), but I am drawn to it.  We will see.  It will be an experiment.  The French designer of my front end mocked me and said using analog tape would be like taking a horse to the supermarket.  Maybe that's what my brain needs in this frenetic day and age.  Slow down....

The dense part I have always attributed to many of the individual instruments / tracks being slathered with compression, and when soloed, don't sound bad at all. However, when trying to do a complete mix... The dull I suspect as the result of being one gen off the multi-track masters, and a much slower speed.

Yeah, I don't get the vinyl fascination. At this point, it's all about laziness on the business end (companies not doing everything they should to get it right. Hell, it took Sony _four_ tries to make Kind of Blue not suck), and the hipster consumer in need of ritual. I'd love to know how many VinylHeads have ever had to move a collection _repeatedly_ that numbers in the four digits...

I hated dealing with vinyl, and it's associated hardware care and feeding BS. I was into reel-to-reel before I got out of high school: Much less fragile equipment, and easier to maintain. Being in the Navy kept me on the tape side. FYI, turntables don't do well while underway in the North Atlantic during Spring.

My complaint with consumer tape was always tape size and speed. Half-inch @ 7.5 or 15 IPS put you into the pro market, and those decks were not cheap.

I left out an important Redbook reference title: Louie Louie (The original version by The Kingsmen). The version on the Nuggets box from a few years ago is so good, if your system is set up right, you get the soundstage of how everybody was placed to record: They were put in a circle, with the vocalist in the middle. Through the track, you can hear the middle of the soundstage collapse as the singer moves around.

[skunark]

I respect Nordost's products and have used them for years.  (All the cable in my studio is by Nordost, as are my microphone cables.)  But I learned long ago that isolating a single component that is part of a complex design and trying to make assessments of performance based on that is a path to nowhere.  A certain DAC chip, power supply topology, capacitor, etc. is no indicator of the final result, which can still range anywhere from State of the Art to absolute trash - using the very same parts.

I can't say I have much respect for Nordost after seeing these pictures in another thread.

Interior pictures of the interior of Nordost Thor  Power Distribution Center ($3300), and the above text is Roy Gregory's review (Hi Fi+ Issue 35).

[bdiament]

Hi skunark,

I can't say I have much respect for Nordost after seeing these pictures in another thread.

My comments are based on extensive listening experience with a wide variety of cables, including many in Nordost's line.  My first Nordosts replaced cables that cost triple their price after they had been sonically shamed by the Nordosts.

I have not listened to the Thor so I'm not sure why the pictures would cause the reaction they did. (Perhaps some 'philes would prefer to see more parts for the price?  If so, I don't subscribe to that myself.  I have no view without direct listening experience; ears I trust who do have the direct listening experience with it have raved about the Thor.)

Best regards,
Barry
www.soundkeeperrecordings.com
www.barrydiamentaudio.com

[Geardaddy]

Skunark, if you read the PDF, you will realize that this was a joint research venture between Nordost, Vertex AQ, and electronic-engineering consultant and sonar expert Gareth Humphries-Jones.  The end product of their collaboration was a piece of software that measures changes in timing errors with changes in cabling, etc.  It would be an interesting tool to fiddle with.

Nomad, I understand the hassle with analog.  I am a digital creature largely due to convenience.  After thumbing through my music collection via Iphone, it is hard to turn back.  That being said, I still plan to do the tape dance.  I will either score a Scully 270 or Tascam 32.  A friend of a friend scored one in good condition off of Craigslist for $200. 

I will check out the Kingsman CD.  Other Redbook to consider:  Air Hadouk by Hadouk Trio; 11:11 by Rodrigo Y Gabriela; Ali Farka Toure & Toumani Diabate (thanks Bohdan for these recs); Freehand by Phil Keaggy.  As I said, I am a sucker for live music.  I have been downloading quite a few torrent files (what a great piece of technology that is).  There is a good live recording of Kahn and Garcia at the Oregon prison in the 80s I picked up recently.  Pretty kool....

[skunark]

I really enjoyed those photos because of the extremely cheap switching wall-wart that is mounted in the chassis for this "power distribution system" and when reading Nordost description about the product make it even more entertaining.  Also, there's no isolation between the outlets, just follow the traces for the live, neutral or earth ground, this does contradict the description about the product.   There are a lot of solid engineering companies in this industry that I respect and I will let my ears select between those, but I won't consider companies that pull those kinds of stunts. 

But this is off topic to the thread.

[firedog]

HD tracks now offers Rebecca Pidgeons "The Raven" in a 176kHz/24bit format.  That album was recorded in 1999 and presumably not in 176kHz/24bit.  It would be interesting to do a blinded listening session of all three formats (CD; 24/96/24/176).  I have the Redbook version of that CD and it is good.  I also have a friend who recently got the HD tracks hi rez equivalent and also said it was spectacular. 

Again, HDTRACKS says they NEVER upsample (doesn't mean they aren't being ripped off by being given something in "hi-res" that was previously upsampled).

If they are selling something in 176, it probably means they have a hi-res digital source - such as the file that was the basis for the SACD (not the SACD, they convert SACDs to 88k). It could be a hi-res digital transcription of analogue. See the recent Rolling Stones hi-res for more examples.

[eclein]

I recently started to gather some HD Tracks and others..the title of the thread asks a question and my new response is - 'its starting to"

For me the "Gaucho" album in hi-rez flac really showed me or let me hear what this new clarity and dynamic range was all about. I've spent to past couple days reworking my setup for the best possible digital file playback that my stuff can handle. I'm hooked-its just clean, clean and did I say clean...
WyWires new digital cable installation got me going in earnest here. Trying not to be a fanboy of Alex's stuff but its perfectly OK if I'm labeled as such but this new cable just brings it....

**If any of you guys know the best place to get like Steely Dan, Pat Metheny and Peter Gabriel type stuff please send me or post the link...HD Tracks has some but not a ton of 96/24 that is typically my cup of tea...Thanks

[Geardaddy]

Firedog, it is obviously an issue HD tracks has to battle: 

http://pro-sacd.lefora.com/2010/12/13/upsampled-sacds/
http://www.computeraudiophile.com/content/2488-Mutter-Carmen-Fastasy-Native-or-Upsampled

End users just need to be circumspect with their purchases.

I would be interested to know, from a technical standpoint, how a 1999 album ends up as 24/176....Barry?

[bdiament]

Hi Geardaddy,

...I would be interested to know, from a technical standpoint, how a 1999 album ends up as 24/176....Barry?

If the original source is analog, it just needs a new mastering to digital at that resolution.  If the original source is digital, it is (in my view) very simply low res that has been placed in a "high res" wrapper.

It takes only seconds for any source to check the authenticity of files they get from a "third party".  Not doing so is either careless or a display of lack of concern for the customer (or just plain downright thievery).  So I don't personally buy into the excuses I've been seeing on line.

I think it is great that folks on the forums are calling these sellers to task.

Best regards,
Barry
www.soundkeeperrecordings.com
www.barrydiamentaudio.com

[rbbert]

I recently started to gather some HD Tracks and others..the title of the thread asks a question and my new response is - 'its starting to"

For me the "Gaucho" album in hi-rez flac really showed me or let me hear what this new clarity and dynamic range was all about.

FWIW, the "HDTracks" version of Gaucho actually has less dynamic range than the Citizen Steely Dan box CD (easily demonstrated in any audio editing program).  It is also almost certainly an upsampled 24/44.1  mastering.

[eclein]

FWIW, the "HDTracks" version of Gaucho actually has less dynamic range than the Citizen Steely Dan box CD (easily demonstrated in any audio editing program).  It is also almost certainly an upsampled 24/44.1  mastering.

Hey--do you have a link you can post to where you got Citizen Steely Dan so I can pick it up...great appreciate it...TY

[Geardaddy]

The Rebecca Pidgeon SACD was:  "Recorded using the 128x oversampling A to D Mark III converter with ultra-analog modules and vacuum tube equipment built by George Kaye."

Here is some interesting verbiage on analog vs digital recording technology:  http://www.digido.com/back-to-analog.html
Not sure on the actual date....

[bdiament]

Hi Geardaddy,

The description of the 128x oversampling converter is a reference to a Redbook (i.e. 16/44, "CD standard" converter).

Best regards,
Barry
www.soundkeeperrecordings.com
www.barrydiamentaudio.com

[Geardaddy]

I see....

[DSD_Mastering]

With all due respect to Barry and others, sleuthing out digital files is not all cut and dried. It takes us about an hour to get 6-8 albums done.
I have a little tutorial set up over at "What's Best Forum" where I show you can be "tricked" into thinking it's hi-rez.
I even ripped a CD, upsampled it, ran it through our Neve console and captured in hi-rez. By looking at the FFT, you would swear it was hi-rez.
We try to be the gate-keepers on what is good hi-rez and what is not. Sometimes the levels are so low that we have to do gain changes, window changes, different smoothing and such just on 1 album. We've had albums where 4-5 tracks were upsampled and the rest hi-rez. Guess you never know what comes through the door next!

[Geardaddy]

interesting DSD_mastering.  What makes a good hi rez recording or for that matter, a good redbook repro?  Do you miss or feel there is a place for analog tape?

[rbbert]

I imagine Bruce will tell you his preference for high-quality analog tape over anything else currently available   

[DSD_Mastering]

Yeah... we get boxes of tape in here every week to transfer. Some are great and some are good. But all are better than CD. Hi-rez digital levels the playing field a bit. Hi-rez digital meaning DSD128fs and DXD.
It's all cumulative. Each bit helps... from the performer, mic choice/set-up, pre, mixing, mastering and even pressing plant. If there is a weak link in the chain, everythng suffers from then on.
30ips 1/2" is the best.....

I will have to add that hi-rez does live up to the hype. But, you have to know what you're listening for. I'm included some files over at "What's Best Forum" to show you what to listen for and how they sound. Remeber, if the rest of your chain isn't up to snuff, including the room, a lot of times you're not going to hear the subtlties between 24/44.1 and 24/88.2 or 176.4

[Geardaddy]

kool....