[zmanastronomy]

i

[sts9fan]

He is using that as a negative term.

[SET Man]

Hey!

   This "Hi-fi sound" have lots of meaning, depending on who you ask As mentioned above by sts9fan can be use in negative term.

    In negative term to me is then the system just sound flat, lack dimensional, lack the undertone/nuance, lack the feel of continued flow and the most important of all lack the emotional feel to the sound. Even though the system can reproduce the full range, solid bass extended high but if the system lack these than it is just sound like "Hi-fi-ish" to me. Than again some people actually do like this.

   Anyway, since you are posing on Single Driver circle I'm assumed that you think that Single Driver would be the answer. But it ain't so. Not all Single Driver/wide bandwidth speaker are created equal. Some do sound "Hi-Fi-ish" to me.

   Before you point your finger at your current speaker as being "hi-fi" you might have to look at your system as a whole also. Maybe there is other component in your system that make a bad match with your speaker?

    If possible you might want to go listen to a good SD speaker system or try them in your own system before you buy a pair. SD speaker are not for everyone. There are advantage and also disadvantage with SD speaker. You do give up some and gain some.

    BTW.... I'm a SD/SET user. Have been using my DIY SD speaker since 2002 and my SET amp kit since 1999.

Take care,
Buddy

   

   

[JLM]

To me "hi-fi" sound means it sounds artificially reproduced, versus sounding like real (live with no mikes/speakers).

Your preference would probably be based on experience.  Its your system, there is no right or wrong (except among audiophiles).

Analogy: McDonald's 1/3rd pound Angus burger is "hi-fi", versus a funny shaped home made burger cooked over a charcoal grille.

[rajacat]

If Hi-Fi sound is regarded as not good, then what is Low-Fi Is this like saying "that dude plays a BAD guitar" while actually meaning he plays very well?

-Roy

[davidrs]

I am looking for a more real sound.

John,

What's real?

- David.

[Bemopti123]

The only way to experience FRD sound is to actually get yourself a pair.  I say you can start by building something decent without much outlay and hook it up to your Almarros.  You are lucky in that most FRD are synergistically design to mate very well with tube amps.  Nevertheless, how SETMAN stated, not all FRD speakers sound the same, there are those that are terribly colored and limited to a certain type of music and those that are incredible in their frequency range and dynamics.

BTW, I got a collection of speakers from large 6 ft big woofered behemots, to small British monitors and the speakers that get most play now or that I have last purchased are both FRD based speakers.  My pair of Brines BR-20 monitors have a helper small alnico tweeters and they sound delicious with both tubes/SET and op chip amplification....NO competition vs standard monitors or floorstanding speakers but the presentation is simply different. 

[TONEPUB]

The single driver/SET thing is a ton of fun, but like anything it has it's limitations.  I highly suggest giving it a try.  If you aren't listening to full scale orchestral music or super heavy duty rock music, it may be your cup of tea.

While I don't live in this world anymore, I really enjoyed my experience with it and if I had one more room, I'd build another FRD/SET system.  The midrange and imaging is pretty spectacular.

If you listen to smaller scale music and perhaps a lot of vocal stuff, you might find this combination to be your slice of heaven!

Here's to a great time with it....

[krikor]

Analogy: McDonald's 1/3rd pound Angus burger is "hi-fi", versus a funny shaped home made burger cooked over a charcoal grille.

Better yet... the McRib boneless pork patty molded into the shape ribs is "hi-fi" versus a slow-cooked rack dripping with scratch-made sauce (or dry-rubbed if that's your thang). A lot of ways to make real ribs, but the McRib will never be mistaken as such.

[Zero]

Hello Zmanastronomy,

To address your first question (re: What is meant by "hi-fi sounding"); 

Usually when an audiophile denotes a set of speakers as having a "hi fi" sound, they are referring to a pair of speakers whose sound quality varies drastically in accordance to the quality of the recording they are fed.  For example: If you feed a top notch quality recording through a pair of high resolution speakers, typically the sound will be quite good. However, if you put a medium to low quality recording through the system, odds are it'll sound damn near un-listenable. Typically, these sort of speakers are engineered to be as "true to the source" as possible. Some people enjoy this presentation, while others loathe it.

Other common traits that are often associated with hi-fi speakers are;  prominence in the treble;  a somewhat dry or thin sounding midrange, and lots of resolution. Also, "hi fi" speakers can sometimes be ultra sensitive to both room placement and the kind of gear they are hooked up to.

Before others respond to critique the above, please note that I'm intentionally being rather with broad in my description


Now onto your next question. 


First, you have a great looking system.  Second, what is it that your Monitor Audio's don't do that you kinda wish they did? List what is important to you in music reproduction, along with a general budget, and the folks here can better guide you towards a number of suitable solutions.

[motosapien]

I'd give that Lore a try then.  The full rangers I built (coniston^2) sound superb on live stuff.  I auditioned those Monitor Audio speakers and I found them "un involving" despite the fact that they are very favorably reviewed. I listened to many expensive speakers on killer systems and did not hear any that have the depth, detail and scale of the ones I built.  Less than $500 for the parts and supplies too!

[chrisby]

regarding the satirical derogatory use of the phrase "hi-fi",  there are more than a few of us DIY troglodytes that use "air-quotes" and a self satisfied smirk when we use or type the word "audiophile" 

as TONEPUB noted, the FRD/SET thing can be a whole lot of fun, and almost too cheap to believe if you can DIY and start with low cost drivers.

If for speakers alone, the dollar amount mentioned is more than adequate for something quite satisfying indeed. 

If you're not able to build the relatively simple cabinets that many of the single driver designs require, Eric's speakers are as good a taste test as any. 



it does of course help to be prepared for the genre's limitations,  but for me the intimacy and immediacy -  particularly given my listening tastes and habits - makes up for the lack of bone-crunching bass and "realistic" concert levels 

[Quiet Earth]

zman,

There is something a little more "live" sounding about FRD speakers when you first hear them. You will understand that hi-fi comment when you hear a FRD for the first time. But,,,,, after a living with a couple of FRDs for a while I ended up realizing that they were just untamed and unfinished speakers and not necessarily more "live" sounding than a really good two way. Of course I haven't heard them all, so just my experience.

Also remember that a lot of people end up trying to finish there FRDs by adding a tweeter, a woofer, a notch filter, or a baffle step filter but still insist that they have a FRD. Why not just set out to do this in the first place with a woofer and a tweeter and a proper enclosure? I don't get the difference other than band aiding all of the problems that come with a FRD. 

People often say that FRD speakers are a tube amplifier's match made in heaven. Maybe some of them are but both of my Omega FRD speakers sound better (to me) on a low powered solid state amp than a 300B or EL84 so I don't know if that's true across the board.

I like your comment about going into the Jazz club and knowing that there is live music going on.     A good stereo system will give you some of this feeling but keep in mind that live music is live music and recordings are recordings. There's an awful lot of pipes in the plumbing by the time it gets to your home speakers. You can't get there from here.

[chrisby]

zman,

There is something a little more "live" sounding about FRD speakers when you first hear them. You will understand that hi-fi comment when you hear a FRD for the first time. But,,,,, after a living with a couple of FRDs for a while I ended up realizing that they were just untamed and unfinished speakers and not necessarily more "live" sounding than a really good two way. Of course I haven't heard them all, so just my experience.

Also remember that a lot of people end up trying to finish there FRDs by adding a tweeter, a woofer, a notch filter, or a baffle step filter but still insist that they have a FRD. Why not just set out to do this in the first place with a woofer and a tweeter and a proper enclosure? I don't get the difference other than band aiding all of the problems that come with a FRD. 

People often say that FRD speakers are a tube amplifier's match made in heaven. Maybe some of them are but both of my Omega FRD speakers sound better (to me) on a low powered solid state amp than a 300B or EL84 so I don't know if that's true across the board.

I like your comment about going into the Jazz club and knowing that there is live music going on.     A good stereo system will give you some of this feeling but keep in mind that live music is live music and recordings are recordings. There's an awful lot of pipes in the plumbing by the time it gets to your home speakers. You can't get there from here.

point well made, but keep in mind that many of these "augmented FR" systems, and for that matter  some of the systems by folks like Zu,  keep the XO out of the critical telephone band, with in many cases no filtering on the wide band driver at all   

[Quiet Earth]

For the most part, "no filtering on the FR driver" is like some kind of imaginary advertising.

Why is it OK to have a nasty untamed peak at 7kHz from a FR driver,,,,, but it's a terrible sin to use a crossover? Or a notch filter??

The sound of fingernails on the chalkboard will often accompany the live and exciting sound of a pure (unfiltered, unaltered) full range driver. Just make sure you try before you buy.

Edit : Believe it or not, I actually think everyone should live with a single driver speaker for a little while so they know the sound of a good two way when they hear it.

[wushuliu]

For the most part, "no filtering on the FR driver" is like some kind of imaginary advertising.

Why is it OK to have a nasty untamed peak at 7kHz from a FR driver,,,,, but it's a terrible sin to use a crossover? Or a notch filter??

The sound of fingernails on the chalkboard will often accompany the live and exciting sound of a pure (unfiltered, unaltered) full range driver. Just make sure you try before you buy.

Edit : Believe it or not, I actually think everyone should live with a single driver speaker for a little while so they know the sound of a good two way when they hear it.

Sorry, but I think full range drivers have come a ways since what you've heard. Certainly the Mark Audio drivers do not exhibit any of the stereotypes you've mentioned as well some others like Omegas, etc.

Believe it or not I think everyone should live with those single drivers for a while so they know a flat two-way when they hear it.

[wushuliu]

zman,

There is something a little more "live" sounding about FRD speakers when you first hear them. You will understand that hi-fi comment when you hear a FRD for the first time. But,,,,, after a living with a couple of FRDs for a while I ended up realizing that they were just untamed and unfinished speakers and not necessarily more "live" sounding than a really good two way. Of course I haven't heard them all, so just my experience.

Also remember that a lot of people end up trying to finish there FRDs by adding a tweeter, a woofer, a notch filter, or a baffle step filter but still insist that they have a FRD. Why not just set out to do this in the first place with a woofer and a tweeter and a proper enclosure? I don't get the difference other than band aiding all of the problems that come with a FRD. 

People often say that FRD speakers are a tube amplifier's match made in heaven. Maybe some of them are but both of my Omega FRD speakers sound better (to me) on a low powered solid state amp than a 300B or EL84 so I don't know if that's true across the board.

I like your comment about going into the Jazz club and knowing that there is live music going on.     A good stereo system will give you some of this feeling but keep in mind that live music is live music and recordings are recordings. There's an awful lot of pipes in the plumbing by the time it gets to your home speakers. You can't get there from here.

This sounds a little more flat earth than quiet. There is no set rule on how to utilize a FR. You are basically saying adding a woofer or a tweeter to a FR is the same as doing a 2-way so why not just do (and call it) a 2-way and this misses the point entirely. And what are 'all these problems'? Tube amps have 'problems', solid state amps have 'problems'. It always boils down to design and driver combination, regardless. There are amazing FR designs and 2/3/4 ways, and there are crappy ones.

[wushuliu]

I've heard some Omega's and was surprised at the sound. I always thought they were going to sound great, I was very dissapointed. No bass, no highs, to forward and shouty. They were in a large room and was very directional. No ambiance at all. I hope that not one of the best out there.

The ones I heard had highs to spare. Like anything you have to find what works for you. I'd been building 2-ways for several years, trying out different things but never took the time for FR because the multi-way crowd tends to pooh-pooh them. Eventually I decided to just hear for myself. The first ones I heard I did not care for, but instead of writing them off I decided to incorporate what they did do well into a setup that met my needs and then looked for ones that my ears liked. I settled on diy-ing w/ Mark Audio drivers because I don't like forward and shouty, my ears are sensitive in that range and even awesome speaker designer Jeff B at Techtalk gave them high praise. The point is keep options open! The Alpair 12 Pensil Studio Monitors I built for instance had better bass than any of the 2-ways I built and top end as good as the tweeters most people throw on top of their woofers. It was arguably better than my Modulas, and those had crossovers that cost more than the drivers...

[Pez]

This topic makes me wonder, is it the passive crossover that full range guys hate? Or is it the woofer, mid, and tweet? Why is it that one would ditch oNe set of problems for (forgive me I mean no harm) a set of much worse ones? I really am curious why true FR guys do it the way they do?

I for one also do not like the sound of passive crossovers, but I went active 1st orders and SET with huge dynamics, tight bass and crystalline highs. Something that I have not heard from any system with a passive crossover and certainly not something I've ever heard from FR of any sort. Though I personally think passive comes closer than FR. Am i missing the point? Any feedback would be greatly appreciated.

[TONEPUB]

Everyone has their own experience.  I've never heard an SET system have HUGE dynamics, even with super efficient speakers, but I have heard SET systems with amazing low level detail.  I'd say the best SET bass I've ever experienced was with the Nelson Pass First Watt amps.  It's a single ended class-a solid state amp and they've got about 95% of the airiness that my favorite 300B and 2A3 amps had but with a lot more bass slam and definition.

But like any of this stuff, there's probably a combination of something out there that we haven't heard.

It's about finding what works for you...