[wushuliu]

This topic makes me wonder, is it the passive crossover that full range guys hate? Or is it the woofer, mid, and tweet? Why is it that one would ditch oNe set of problems for (forgive me I mean no harm) a set of much worse ones? I really am curious why true FR guys do it the way they do?

I for one also do not like the sound of passive crossovers, but I went active 1st orders and SET with huge dynamics, tight bass and crystalline highs. Something that I have not heard from any system with a passive crossover and certainly not something I've ever heard from FR of any sort. Though I oersonall think passive comes closer than FR. Am i missing the point? Any feedback would be greatly appreciated.

I'm sure wiser folks than me will chime in, but FR seem more dependent on enclosure design than conventional multi-way. When I built a basic bass reflex with the Alpair 12 I was like, ok, this sounds good, not amazing. Then I built Scott's Double Bass Reflex Studio Monitor design and had my hat handed to me. Seemed like nothing special as I built it. I watched Aliens with them and they hit the lows (moderate volume mind you), nice and clean and more articulate than the MTMs I had and top end to spare. But it's also a niche where you have to really know what you want and from there narrow down a design that works for you. To me it seems like an area where it can be real hit or miss if you don't know what your room needs and what will best accommodate your music tastes.

[Wind Chaser]

If Hi-Fi sound is regarded as not good, then what is Low-Fi

Low-Fi resides below Mid-Fi.  If Hi-Fi (high fidelity) isn't regarded as good, that person is probably an infidel (in a state of infidelity) and music isn't their thing.  For such, going deaf may be the best thing...

[motosapien]

With some research, I lucked into an excellent design for my first full ranger.  The two CSS EL70 drivers in each cabinet deliver the goods.  I tapered the highs away from the side drivers with a 68uF cap.  The drivers are wired in series with the cap across the second driver.  This was done to eliminate comb filtering and to bring the highs into balance with the lower spectrum.  This is not a cross over and the two forward facing drivers run unfiltered in full range.  I tried a ribbon transducer but it lowered the impedance too much and did not contribute to the upper range in a meaningful way.

As stated earlier, I listened to many fine speaker systems before choosing to go the DIY full range route.  I've got a pair now that satisfies me like none other I've heard. Depth, clarity and an impressive sound stage.

[JohnR]

This topic makes me wonder, is it the passive crossover that full range guys hate? Or is it the woofer, mid, and tweet?

Few people will be able to answer this question. While you feel that you can in some respect I'm sure you can recognize that unless every other variable is equal then it's a little hard to draw conclusions. To the question, my personal experience (without any claim to being exhaustive, never mind authoritative) is that many tweeters don't sound natural. Not all, just many. To be honest I get tired of people pounding their chests about the problems with full range speakers and frankly that isn't what this circle is for, so let me suggest another approach: DIY. You know what that means It's cheap and fun and there is loads of stuff to experiment with.

[rollo]

  I would say that sound is Bright, thin and dry. now the SET thing, Tonepub you are invited to come over and listen to full orchestra with 18W and the Pipedreams, Or Tannoys with 8W. Slamatronics in spades.



charles
 

[JLM]

For 40 years my emphasis has always been speakers in the sound reproduction chain.  In the last 35 years I’ve been devoted to transmission line (TL) cabinet designs.  And in the past 10 years I’ve also become a single driver guy.  For the past 5 years I’ve been a purist audiophile.  I don’t listen loud, but believe that deep bass is foundational.  I listen mostly to small ensembles (jazz, baroque, and classic pop).  Based on all my quirks:

1.  Live (unamplified) music is the ultimate test and one that most manufacturers, even of six figure systems fear to tread.  To his credit, Brian Chenney (VMPS) tried it recently at CES with his latest $12,000 speakers and didn’t get laughed out of the building.
2.  The ideal driver would have zero mass, zero size, high efficiency, huge frequency range, uniform impedence, etc.  But those crummy laws of physics say that you can’t have all that.
3.  Two drivers produce sound from two places (that ain’t natural as all sound radiates from a single point per source).
4.  Similarly various dipole and vertical array speakers aren’t natural either.
5.  Two different drivers (woofer/tweeter at crossover frequency) will sound differently (dynamics/dispersion/etc.) and that ain’t natural either.
6.  Crossovers induce phasing errors that smear the sound and degrade imaging.
7.  Half the sound produced by a driver radiates back into the cabinet, yet few designers shape the interior space to deal with the reflections. 
8.  Driver cone/dome materials are acoustically semi-transparent, so the cabinet reflections can come through the driver material and smear the sound.
9.  TL is a more sophisticated version of sealed or ported designs.  It wasn’t until the last few years that a design method existed for TL.
10.  Note that Voigt (who quarter wave tuned pipes, a design similar to TL, are sometimes named for) didn’t care for them.
11.  Typical horn efficiency comes at the expense of compressing the air into a non-elastic (distortion producing) way.
12.  Very few drivers can’t do 30 -20,000 Hz (the range of nearly all music) and even if they do dispersion is limited at higher frequencies.
13.  Many extended range drivers (I avoid quibbling over the term “full range driver”) use whizzer cones that have unexplained impacts on the sound.
14.  Most extended range drivers have limited cone travel (Xmax) which limits ultimate sound pressure levels.
15.  Most extended range drivers are highly efficient and nearly all high efficiency speaker systems are highly “colored” (their frequency response isn’t flat).
16.  Using a “helper” woofer or tweeter simply turns the design from single driver to conventional.

So, there is no perfect speaker.  All have compromises.  For me the Bob Brines FTA-2000 are nearly perfect.  But do listen to chrisby when it comes to single driver designs (he has more experience than nearly everyone else here at AC put together). 

[Barry_NJ]

(that ain’t natural as all sound radiates from a single point per source).

Mostly good and valid points, but I'll take a bit of exception to the one above in particular...

Instruments radiate sound from their entirety. The strings of a bass can exceed 4 feet in length and sound radiates off the full length of the string, never mind the body of the instrument.

Also the whole stereo effect, coming from two speakers, single driver or otherwise, tosses single point replication out the window from the start.

[davidrs]

12.  Very few drivers can’t do 30 -20,000 Hz (the range of nearly all music) and even if they do dispersion is limited at higher frequencies.

JLM, Do you mean: Very few drivers can’t [can] do 30 -20,000 Hz?

[wushuliu]

16.  Using a “helper” woofer or tweeter simply turns the design from single driver to conventional.

Define conventional, because off-hand I'm not aware of any conventional 2-way speakers with a single driver covering from 80-300hz to >20khz. Really don't understand this need to put things into neat categories.

[Quiet Earth]

Zman,

You have a thousand dollars burning a hole in your pocket and you need to discover if the crossover-less speaker is indeed the answer to your prayers as you have been told. Odds are that you will not be able to audition a full ranger locally, so here you are asking a seemingly simple question, just looking for some kind of sign whether or not to take the plunge. Am I close?

I would say if you can risk a little hobby money and buy the full rangers without selling your Monitor Audio RS6s, then you ought to give it a try. A thousand dollars is not that much of a life changing risk for most people. After several months of living with your new full rangers, swapping back and forth a couple of times with the RS6s, you can decide which pair is right for you and sell one of them to recoup some of your thousand dollars. You might even sell both of them and move onward and upward from there. Who knows?

The only way you will know what all of this arguing over petty semantics is all about is to own a pair for yourself. Then you will be blessed like the rest of us! 
 

[doug s.]

i use what many folks consider to be a full-range driver - a decware iteration of the fostex fe206e.  it's in an oris 150 horn.  while i have a three way system - bass-bins from ~250hz to 80hz, and subs below that, i really do not care if someone tells me i am not really running a true full-range speaker system.  i also use active dsp and active x-over - a deqx.  i am getting flat frequency response from 20hz to 20khz.  i think it works great.

ymmv,

doug s.

[chrisby]

Zman,

You have a thousand dollars burning a hole in your pocket and you need to discover if the crossover-less speaker is indeed the answer to your prayers as you have been told. Odds are that you will not be able to audition a full ranger locally, so here you are asking a seemingly simple question, just looking for some kind of sign whether or not to take the plunge. Am I close?

I would say if you can risk a little hobby money and buy the full rangers without selling your Monitor Audio RS6s, then you ought to give it a try. A thousand dollars is not that much of a life changing risk for most people. After several months of living with your new full rangers, swapping back and forth a couple of times with the RS6s, you can decide which pair is right for you and sell one of them to recoup some of your thousand dollars. You might even sell both of them and move onward and upward from there. Who knows?

The only way you will know what all of this arguing over petty semantics is all about is to own a pair for yourself. Then you will be blessed like the rest of us! 
 

well snarked, mr Earth 
 


As said above, since single driver driver speakers are still enough of a niche product to have very poor representation in most of the remaining retail establishments, auditioning will usually involve some research to find local owners / DIYers (who will generally fall over themselves offering to demo, with or without the bribe of a beverage or two), or taking the leap of faith and trying a pair from manufacturers offering in-home trials.



All you have to lose is a bit of gas money or return shipping costs respectively - what you have to gain is the revelation as to whether this is something what will work for you.   

[JLM]

Barry,

Yes a string is long, but its not two separate points in space.

David,

Yes, good catch.

wush,

By conventional I simply mean two drivers (one meant for frequencies higher than the other, with a crossover of some sort).  Doesn't much matter to me if the crossover is at 100, 1,000, or 10,000 Hz.

[pardales]

Well I took the plunge today. I picked up a 10" full range with a tweeter added for extention. I don't know what type high pass filter is used, but from 30hz to 10khz there is no filter at all.
I'll let you know my thoughts. It's been wonderful hearing the people that are passionate about FRD's.
The box is 39x12x14 with a front port design. Wizzer cone on the 10" Eminence Legend driver.

Sounds like fun! Enjoy and let  us know what you think after you've spent some time with em'.   

[doug s.]

wush,

By conventional I simply mean two drivers (one meant for frequencies higher than the other, with a crossover of some sort).  Doesn't much matter to me if the crossover is at 100, 1,000, or 10,000 Hz.

i am w/wushuliu on this one.  doesn't much matter to me if there's crossovers - as long as they're not in the range of ~300hz to ~10khz, the speakers are not conventional.

ymmv,

doug s.

[chrisby]

For me, the location (line or speaker level), crossover frequency/(ies) and complexity of the filtering "network" make all the difference as to transparency or perceived coherency in the bandwidth that most SD/FR consider most crucial (i.e. let's say 100-8k?)

While there are arguably no single element drivers of any technology that can deliver flat FR at "realistic levels" (whatever that means) across a full 10 octaves, there are many that can do a very respectable job of 7 or 8   

[davidrs]

Well I took the plunge today. I picked up a 10" full range with a tweeter added for extention.

I'll let you know my thoughts. It's been wonderful hearing the people that are passionate about FRD's.

Zmanastronomy,

Congratulations for taking the chance and experiencing it for yourself.

My first go at it was with a Zu Superfly and it was a very positive experience.

As you mentioned, definitely post your impressions.

And enjoy the journey.

- David.

[PSB Guy]

Glad to see you took the plunge, John. I got the FedEx delivery email for my pair of Lores from Eric today, they should be here in a week or so. So stoked . Good luck with your pair.

Cornelis

[Bemopti123]

 Eric's speakers are as good a taste test as any. 



it does of course help to be prepared for the genre's limitations,  but for me the intimacy and immediacy -  particularly given my listening tastes and habits - makes up for the lack of bone-crunching bass and "realistic" concert levels

What sort of speakers are we referring to right here?  It seems as if PSB guy also has a pair of these coming from mysterious Eric?   Let us know what specifically are you referring to. 

[opnly bafld]

What sort of speakers are we referring to right here?  It seems as if PSB guy also has a pair of these coming from mysterious Eric?   Let us know what specifically are you referring to.

http://www.tektondesign.com/lore.html