[neobop]

I guess my last post, inspired by frustration with trying to get info on the String Theory arm, was a show stopper. Concerning that, I want to say that marketing considerations or possible perception of the look, in no way reflect on the sonics. It might sound much better than other arms at that price point. There is some serious competition for the same or less money and it will be interesting to see what develops.

I don't know Pete Riggle. I've only talked to him on the phone a couple of times. I do know that he's a competent engineer/designer and there's a good chance that the arm is way better than any direct competition. Although I still only have a vague idea of the workings, it seems unique. That fact alone makes it deserving of a fair trial. After all, we're all looking for the best sound we can get for our dollars, regardless of whether the designer is a nice guy, or not. This could be a wonderful arm, I don't know. My last post reflects realities of the marketplace, but doesn't reflect the merits of the product itself.
neo

EDIT: I was just about to post this when a red warning sign came on telling me of your post. I'm familiar with the orig Well Tempered. I set up a few. From your description, this seems very different. Maybe it's largely due to my experience with that arm, that I said what I did (above). I was setting up multi thousand dollar TTs, hell at one point we had a Goldmund Reference on the floor, and the first time we got a Well Tempered, we were shocked. Maybe String Theory is like that, beats me.

[Mister Pig]

Hi Neo

One of the tables I have owned is an early production Well Tempered Record Player. Mine had the round motor, clear platter, and aluminum arm wand. At first I ran a Koetsu Black on it, and later changed to a Dynavector 17D2.

I thought the WTRP was a nice table, and a credible performer. The arm was interesting to set up, and would tell you a lot about the quality of the alignment you did on it. I worked through quite a few adjustments with that arm, all the standard ones, and experimenting with the depth of the arm disc in the silicone well, You know MDF gets a bad rap as a material, and sure there are better, but the use of it in the WTRP table was great. It shows that while materials and parts matter, the execution of a design and understanding the inter-relationships between components is paramount. I always thought the Well Tempered tables were a fine product for the money.

I eventually replaced the WTRP with an early series Teres 245 table. I ran an ET II arm on it with the Dynavector. Later I sprung for the battery driven motor upgrade, and that made a significant improvement. I never did get the lead shot loaded platter. The Teres was a major upgrade from my early WT, but it sure cost a lot more.

I guess from my experience with this table is why I am willing to consider the String Theory arm.

For what its worth, arm will be done this weekend, and is going to get installed on the table next Thursday. May have to cut an interim arm board, but there is a good chance the factory one will be here by then.


Regards
Mister Pig

[neobop]

Hi MP,
It was the late '80s, and I guess we had a couple of inquiries about the WT. There was some press about it and that was enough to inspire the mgr to order one. It was on me to set it up, cause I was the TT guy. I think the motor and cutout were square. I remember reading the alignment instruction around 3 times and concluding that Firebaugh was from Mars. The arm was short, if I remember correctly, so it was paramount to get a decent alignment. I went through a bunch of carts trying to find the longest mounting screw to stylus distance for a Baerwald alignment. If you use a Dennesen protractor (predecessor to Feikert) it makes it lots easier to do a reverse alignment, if that's an adequate description.    Anyway, I wound up with a HOMC, I think it was an Adcom. I didn't quite make Baerwald so I angled it to get reasonable nulls.

I didn't even take it to the high end room. I just set it on a counter beneath some 1/2 decent receivers and plugged it in. Nobody could believe it. This thing sounded better than it had a right to sound. But I'll tell you something, it didn't matter much as far as sales were concerned. Most people saw it as a curiosity piece and not something they would seriously consider buying. Sure, we sold a few, but not like VPIs or whatever. In a more ultimate sense it definitely held it's own, but it's one thing to sound natural or free of grain and another to compete with the heavy hitters.

You seem to have a penchant for odd cart/arm match-ups. A Koetsu Black and a 17D2? I wouldn't have thunk it. Amazing what some silicone can do. Tell me something, was that a 30g String Theory you used for the Liberty review?

Cheers,
neo

[Mister Pig]

Hi MP,
It was the late '80s, and I guess we had a couple of inquiries about the WT. There was some press about it and that was enough to inspire the mgr to order one. It was on me to set it up, cause I was the TT guy. I think the motor and cutout were square. I remember reading the alignment instruction around 3 times and concluding that Firebaugh was from Mars. The arm was short, if I remember correctly, so it was paramount to get a decent alignment. I went through a bunch of carts trying to find the longest mounting screw to stylus distance for a Baerwald alignment. If you use a Dennesen protractor (predecessor to Feikert) it makes it lots easier to do a reverse alignment, if that's an adequate description.    Anyway, I wound up with a HOMC, I think it was an Adcom. I didn't quite make Baerwald so I angled it to get reasonable nulls.

I didn't even take it to the high end room. I just set it on a counter beneath some 1/2 decent receivers and plugged it in. Nobody could believe it. This thing sounded better than it had a right to sound. But I'll tell you something, it didn't matter much as far as sales were concerned. Most people saw it as a curiosity piece and not something they would seriously consider buying. Sure, we sold a few, but not like VPIs or whatever. In a more ultimate sense it definitely held it's own, but it's one thing to sound natural or free of grain and another to compete with the heavy hitters.

You seem to have a penchant for odd cart/arm match-ups. A Koetsu Black and a 17D2? I wouldn't have thunk it. Amazing what some silicone can do. Tell me something, was that a 30g String Theory you used for the Liberty review?

Cheers,
neo

Hi Neo,

It would be fair to say that I have owned a few tables that have taken a different path to solving the problems associated with analog playback. The Well Tempered, and the Townshend Rock III were both designed by some creative thinkers.

Also I have found that I never cared for many of the suspended tables out there. Never owned the variations of the VPI HW19, but I never heard one a fell in love with either. Same thing with the SOTA, although a friend of mine has a decent sounding one. But he has a lot of money tied up in that one. Although I will say that one of my favorite TT experiences is when I head an LP12/Ittok/Trioka combination. That one I loved then, not sure if the result would be the same today.

Owning the Teres showed me the benefits of a high mass/non suspended table. They are not perfect, but I do appreciate their strength. The Galibier I am currently running is an excellent example of what this type of design can achieve.

The String Theory arm will be installed next Thursday. For the review I used an Artisan Audio which was sent by Galibier. I didn't want to drill up an arm board for my modified Rega that was on the Townshend, would have been a waste for when the String Theory arm was finished. The AA arm is just an upgraded Jelco, and really a humble unit that overachieves. But still its not a high performance arm. But the playing field was kept level, and from my perspective the Liberty still outperformed than the other phono stages. Certainly there can be limitations set by the arm, but I would suspect that the performance gap between the Liberty and other stages may have increased. My interest in gear is the stuff that the average person can afford, and my working system reflects the quality level that a devoted hobbyist with a real world budget would be able to buy. I guess because thats what I am.

For what its worth, I am forming the opinion that silicone is not a good thing for turntables. I hear a sonic signature to tables that use silicone....,,in my case the Townshend and the WT. Yes the systems were different, and the cartridges. But there is an overall sameness to the sound that connects both tables. If too much dampening is created by the silicone the music gets a sameness to the sound. But when the silicone dampening is backed off, this sameness is present, but at a much less noticeable level. The silicone always seems to have some affect to the overall presentation of the music.

Regards
Mister Pig

[neobop]

MP,
Sorry, I didn't word that last cart/arm mass comment well. This morning I thought I'd edit it, but you already quoted and responded. I shouldn't have drawn any conclusions about tendencies from that info. Sometimes these forums can be very confrontational. Guess I'm unnecessarily prepared for battle. Bad habit.

Yes, silicon is the great equalizer, in more ways than one. It's what allows someone to successfully use a med/high cu cart with a 20g arm, like a Jelco 750d. I advised people with this arm to try to find a cart that would match up without the extra damping, but that would eliminate a lot of popular carts. I think in general, it's different if silicon is part of the arm bearing mechanism or added to it or externally. Grado is the only cart I know of that is under-damped deliberately and might benefit from judicious use of silicone. With others, while the damping will tame resonance peak of arm/cart combos, it's difficult, maybe impossible to settle on an amount that is right. Like anti-skate, tendency is to over-damp. This effects transient response of the cart. More on the slew side than rise side I think. But the transient peak is probably damped as well, just like the resonance peak of the arm/cart. Also recovery of low level detail and ability respond to abrupt changes in groove modulation seem effected. But, it's like arm bearing drag, I think it's better if you don't need silicone at all.

Regards,
neo

[Mister Pig]

MP,
Sorry, I didn't word that last cart/arm mass comment well. This morning I thought I'd edit it, but you already quoted and responded. I shouldn't have drawn any conclusions about tendencies from that info. Sometimes these forums can be very confrontational. Guess I'm unnecessarily prepared for battle. Bad habit.

Yes, silicon is the great equalizer, in more ways than one. It's what allows someone to successfully use a med/high cu cart with a 20g arm, like a Jelco 750d. I advised people with this arm to try to find a cart that would match up without the extra damping, but that would eliminate a lot of popular carts. I think in general, it's different if silicon is part of the arm bearing mechanism or added to it or externally. Grado is the only cart I know of that is under-damped deliberately and might benefit from judicious use of silicone. With others, while the damping will tame resonance peak of arm/cart combos, it's difficult, maybe impossible to settle on an amount that is right. Like anti-skate, tendency is to over-damp. This effects transient response of the cart. More on the slew side than rise side I think. But the transient peak is probably damped as well, just like the resonance peak of the arm/cart. Also recovery of low level detail and ability respond to abrupt changes in groove modulation seem effected. But, it's like arm bearing drag, I think it's better if you don't need silicone at all.

Regards,
neo

Please Neo, no slight was taken on my part. Nor do I view this thread as a "battle" although I know that behavior can be commonplace on the net. Which tends to be the reason why I post so little.

It's just a bit of fun to be able to discuss analog theory/experience in a meaningful way. I enjoy what this thread has become.

I think you are right about no silicone being the best thing for analog. Although as I recall Basis uses some of it as a suspension for their tables, and I wonder how that works out. But the question is can silicone make a respectable arm or table reach to heights that should not be able to grasp? From my perspective, in some aspects yes....in others no. You have to balance the gains with the drawbacks, and see if those compromises fit in with what you appreciate.

As far as arms goes, and analog in general, there is no substitute for a good design and superior mechanical parts. Machining capabilities today are awesome, and the tolerance of parts has improved remarkably. There are some great tables out there today, but they don't come cheap.

Just curious to know, what table are you running now? I know you had a Goldmund Studettio at one time, and the SOTA. But not sure if I remember reading what machine you currently have playing.

Thought about buying a Studettio at one time, thought about it quite hard. Just wasn't sure if I could get it serviced properly if it ever needed it. Actually came across some Maplenolls too, and had the same kind of thoughts as I did about the Goldmund.

Regards
Mister Pig

[neobop]

Not a battle, more like a knee-jerk reaction. See a possible opening and take it.

RE: Suspended tables. I'm not really familiar with the newer magnetic suspensions. But I don't think they would be in your current area of focus - popularly priced gear or gear that's not out of reach for most. When it comes to springs, many decks (at least those I've seen in the past) do it wrong IMO and most users aren't educated to correct the problem. Even my Goldmund was deficient in this area. Although arm boards were offered for SME and Linn mount arms, not enough flexibility in spring stiffness was offered. I took home a bunch of different Studio springs for my Studietto to solve this problem. Some other people wound up defeating the suspension by installing sorbothane pucks.

I think Linn has it right when it comes to adjusting a suspension. It must bounce straight up and down. Any sideways movement will interfere with tracking. If you think about this for a sec, it's kind of obvious. To test a suspension, put any extra weight you might use on there, like a clamp. Then bounce the platter at a point along the line between the spindle and arm pivot, around 60mm or where the standard lead-out groove begins. You have to do this a few times to make sure your bounce is straight and not making it go sideways. Just observe. If the bounce isn't straight look at the respective spring rates and make them even.

It was theorized in the past that suspended decks tend to be deficient in the deepest bass. This isn't necessarily true. It could be partially true due to a myriad of reasons, including maladjustment.

Something just came up that demands my attention. I have to post this and get back in a little while.
neo

Edit: I just want to add to this suspension bounce thing. The point on the platter that I designated to test, is the center of gravity (horizontal) for the LP12. Other tables could differ, especially 4 spring ones. The center of gravity shouldn't be too far off for other decks. It's really just a matter of weight distribution and spring tension/stiffness. You might have to hunt around a little. But it should be somewhere between the spindle and the lead-out groove. 

[djbnh]

This post was about Liberty Audio Phono stage. I wondering if non-Liberty related posts might be better off in a new thread.

[neobop]

This post was about Liberty Audio Phono stage. I wondering if non-Liberty related posts might be better off in a new thread.

Beats me. This is MP's thread. Guess it goes all over the place. What would you call it? Maybe it could be renamed.
Liberty Phono Stage and other stuff 

neo 

[nickd]

I heard the liberty at PBN a few weeks back. It's on the must have list for me. I own a PBN EB-1 Super Amp and it got me off the amp of the month habbit. I hope the Liberty and the trusty VPI Classic will do the trick for me. Now to find a MC pick up I can have a long term relationship with that doesn't cost more that 1K

[neobop]

Hi Nickd,
Are you running a phono stage now? Just wondering where you're coming from. That amp must be nice. You already have the Classic?  There's a few well thought of MCs under $1K.

It would be interesting to hear your thoughts on the Liberty after you get it going. MP's description kind of reminds me of my phono stage. I have an AHT prototype.
http://www.soundstage.com/revequip/frank02.htm
I wonder how the Liberty would stack up against the Jasmine. I'd guess that the Jasmine is a little warmer and the Liberty is a little cleaner. LOL, I haven't heard either one.

Let us know what you think.
neo

[jtwrace]

Mister Pig-

Are you still using the Liberty Phono Stage?  Any other users?

[Mister Pig]

Mister Pig-

Are you still using the Liberty Phono Stage?  Any other users?

Yes the Liberty is still in my system, and I am as satisfied with it today as when I first decided to buy it. Given its price point there is nothing I can fault it for in terms of performance, although it is a little sparse on user features. But I would take the sound quality it possesses over creature comforts any day, and it is a remarkable phono stage.

Matter of fact I did make an upgrade to my analog system during the past year. I replaced the Accuphase AC3 cartridge with a ZYX 4D. The ZYX  certainly a magnitude better than the AC3, which was no slouch. What is interesting is that both cartridges are from the hand of the same designer, so it does show that cartridge design is moving forward from the "golden days" of analog playback. The Liberty does the 4D right, and the music from the analog rig is superb. This says a lot about a phono stage, when it is able to keep step with a high performance cartridge.

I have no desire, and probably not the financial means, to improve past the Liberty in the near future. I am utterly content with the unit, and don't see myself changing it out.

Regards
Mister Pig

[jtwrace]

Yes the Liberty is still in my system, and I am as satisfied with it today as when I first decided to buy it. Given its price point there is nothing I can fault it for in terms of performance, although it is a little sparse on user features. But I would take the sound quality it possesses over creature comforts any day, and it is a remarkable phono stage.

Matter of fact I did make an upgrade to my analog system during the past year. I replaced the Accuphase AC3 cartridge with a ZYX 4D. The ZYX  certainly a magnitude better than the AC3, which was no slouch. What is interesting is that both cartridges are from the hand of the same designer, so it does show that cartridge design is moving forward from the "golden days" of analog playback. The Liberty does the 4D right, and the music from the analog rig is superb. This says a lot about a phono stage, when it is able to keep step with a high performance cartridge.

I have no desire, and probably not the financial means, to improve past the Liberty in the near future. I am utterly content with the unit, and don't see myself changing it out.

Regards
Mister Pig

Thank you very much for the update.