FireWire cable w/no power leg

Audioclyde · « **on:** 21 Jan 2011, 03:11 pm »

Not sure if this is the right Circle, but Path of Least Resistance seems more about our traditional cables. I'm looking to experiment with using a FireWire cable with no power leg to connect my Mac mini to my external HD (where music files reside).

My 2010 Mac mini of course has FW800; I have the Oyen external HD that has both FW800 and 400 inputs. Is there a place to get a decent (Belkin Gold, etc) cable to connect these two without a pwr leg? I believe if I go with a cable that is 6/9 pin to 4 pin, then it has no pwr leg, but the 4 pin connection pics look different than what my units can use? I'm not ready to spend significant $ for a 'boutique' cable that does this (yet)......

Thanks in advance for advice and or links.

Randy

Johnny2Bad · « **Reply #1 on:** 15 Mar 2011, 10:46 pm »

A brief summary of the IEEE-1394 specification reveals the answer to your question.
"Firewire" is a trademark of Apple, Inc (formerly Apple Computer, Inc). The protocol was given to the IEEE as an open royalty-free standard by Apple Computer Inc and released as IEEE Standard 1394. Sony Corporation also implemented a non-compliant version of IEEE-1394 that they call "iLink" which was later adopted into the standard.
So, first of all, if you call it Firewire, you have to pay a royalty to Apple to use the trademark. If you call it iLink, you have to pay a royalty to SONY to use the trademark. If you call it IEEE-1394, you don't use the trademark so no royalty is due.
Since bus power is implemented in the Firewire specification, all Firewire cables implement the power connections. Since bus power is never implemented in the iLink specification, all iLink cables do not implement the power connections. An IEEE-1394 device may or may not be powered, so an IEEE-1394 cable may or may not implement the power connections.
The answer, then, is to seek an iLink cable, not a Firewire cable, or seek an IEEE-1394 cable that is unpowered. Note that SONY uses a proprietary connector for it's iLink specification, but you should be able to find compatible cables marked IEEE-1394 with the correct cable terminations.

ted_b · « **Reply #2 on:** 16 Mar 2011, 12:18 am »

Why would you delete the power leg from your fw cable?? That should be done Mac to DAC, but not MAC to HDD? Your alternative is a wallwart!! I made sure to get the Oyen to do exactly your opposite, i.e. power my HDD via bus power, not external noisy wallwart.

newzooreview · « **Reply #3 on:** 16 Mar 2011, 01:24 am »

You would remove the power from the Firewire cable to isolate the data moving across the cable from the power moving across the cable. The wall wart on the Oyen can't have an adverse effect on the computer or the bits moving along the firewire cable in this case. So it's irrelevant. Likewise any effect of the power supply on the computer on the data moving across the firewire cable is eliminated because the cable is not carrying any power, just data.

It sounds like the OP is looking for an alternative to something like the $250 "Most Beautiful Sound" firewire cable that both eliminates the power on the cable and uses a higher tolerance set of connectors and wiring.

It would be an interesting experiment to see if just snipping the power connection in a run-of-the-mill firewire cable would yield an improvement vs. an expensive cable like the MBS.

skunark · « **Reply #4 on:** 16 Mar 2011, 01:52 am »

Quote from: newzooreview on 16 Mar 2011, 01:24 am

You would remove the power from the Firewire cable to isolate the data moving across the cable from the power moving across the cable. The wall wart on the Oyen can't have an adverse effect on the computer or the bits moving along the firewire cable in this case. So it's irrelevant. Likewise any effect of the power supply on the computer on the data moving across the firewire cable is eliminated because the cable is not carrying any power, just data.

It sounds like the OP is looking for an alternative to something like the $250 "Most Beautiful Sound" firewire cable that both eliminates the power on the cable and uses a higher tolerance set of connectors and wiring.

It would be an interesting experiment to see if just snipping the power connection in a run-of-the-mill firewire cable would yield an improvement vs. an expensive cable like the MBS.

If the whole point is isolation, make sure you put the wallwart on a isolated outlet. Otherwise, I would encourage the OP to follow Ted's advice.

ted_b · « **Reply #5 on:** 16 Mar 2011, 02:39 am »

In my case it's not theorizing; it made a big difference.

Quiet Earth · « **Reply #6 on:** 16 Mar 2011, 04:55 am »

Bumping this in hopes of getting a better education.

Quote from: ted_b on 16 Mar 2011, 12:18 am

..... power my HDD via bus power, not external noisy wallwart.

Ted,

Isn't bus power also generated from a similar noisy power supply? I don't understand the difference.

highfilter · « **Reply #7 on:** 16 Mar 2011, 05:26 am »

Like newzooreview said, you can look into the Most Beautiful Sound Firewire cable at Mach2Music, it also has some info about power etc: http://www.mach2music.com/order/mbs-firewire.html

I talked with Eric from dB Audio Labs about firewire and he was finding great results using a high-end firewire cable (still had power, but it was heavily isolated) with a Oyen drive on a Mac Mini. He said he thought it could be on par with power-cut cables, but he said this cable was blowing his mind because he wasn't entirely sure why it made a difference at all when it is just feeding tunes. I believe it was a Ridge Street Audio cable, not sure if it is released yet.

I found that interesting. Most likely a smaller step-up in performance compared to what else you could spend money on, but when you want to squeeze every last ounce of performance out, might be worth a look.

ted_b · « **Reply #8 on:** 16 Mar 2011, 12:43 pm »

Quote from: Quiet Earth on 16 Mar 2011, 04:55 am

Bumping this in hopes of getting a better education.

Ted,

Isn't bus power also generated from a similar noisy power supply? I don't understand the difference.

Yeah, but my understanding is that it's not in the signal path, it's just sending data. I want the wallwart out of my system because I don't want it, the wallwart, adding to the mess. I'm prolly not 'splainin it well. I'll look up the explanation on CA and get back.

jrebman · « **Reply #9 on:** 23 Mar 2011, 01:53 am »

How about a fw cable with no power leg and use a linear psu on the external drive?

That's what I'm eventually hoping to do, but on the other hand, the use of a linear psu on the mini, as some are experimenting with, may eliminate the need for removing the power leg on the fw cable. Not sure about that because theory and pactice don't always go hand in hand in this digital audio erealm and who knows without trrying it?

I'm all for eliminating power conneectiions through data cables, but without emprical data it's just too hard to predict these things.

-- Jim

dmccombs · « **Reply #10 on:** 23 Mar 2011, 05:29 pm »

Quote from: ted_b on 16 Mar 2011, 02:39 am

In my case it's not theorizing; it made a big difference.

Interesting Ted. We started out thinking that bus powered was the way to go (eliminate the walwart), but on our testing we found the opposite (no power leg on the firewire cable) sounded even better. That is why we started offering the MBS cable.

I guess this how the YMMV acronym came about.

Darrell
www.mach2music.com

ted_b · « **Reply #11 on:** 23 Mar 2011, 05:50 pm »

Darrell,
So I am very open to going back and trying to isolate the wallwart (my Oyen hd will go either way) and listen and report back. To quote Paul Simon, I was wrong once, and I could be wrong again.

Audioclyde · « **Reply #12 on:** 23 Mar 2011, 06:13 pm »

Since I started this thread, guess I should chime back in; I went ahead and bought the MBS FW cable and have used it for a couple of weeks. Sound is great--unfortunately I haven't had the time to really compare my Oyen HD pwr'ed by the walwart (which is plugged into an Equitech balanced pwr conditioner, which is plugged into an Uber Buss) vs running with a pwrd firewire cable so off the computer's usb buss. I just haven't been home enough to do a critical comparison. When I do, I'll report back my thoughts.

Randy

ted_b · « **Reply #13 on:** 24 Mar 2011, 04:24 am »

Mea culpa, mea culpa, mea maxima culpa!!!

I did the experiment tonight with my loaner USB M2tech Young DAC, and realized many things....but the first thing is that you guys are absolutely spot on!!! Thank You!! My soundstage is so much clearer and with more tonality it's really quite amazing.

The second thing I found out is that I often don't know what I'm talking about!!

Seriously, when I stated above that I went from wallwart to bus power what I now realize is that I went from a WD MyBooks external hard drive with wall wart (which means I still had power going though the USB or firewire cable) to an Oyen Digital 2.5" portable USB/firewire hdd with bus power. I never heard the Oyen with wallwart power cuz it didn't come with a wallwart...that piece is an extra cost accessory. However, tonight I looked around the house and found a 5V 1.2A (Oyen sells a 5V 2A) wallwart and then discarded the standard firewire cable I was using and instead used the custom firewire cable assembly I normally use for my Weiss firewire DAC, i.e a GoldX 4 pin-to- 6 pin 24k cable with a good 4/6 adapter, thus deleting the power run.

The difference was heard both by yours truly and my buddy Rob (questfortone). We easily heard better detail, better air, lower noise floor and most evident...less grain and hash in the overall presentation...something you wouldn't know was there until it was gone. This was reinforced by going back to the older bus powered setup...for like 2 minutes until we couldn't stand it anymore.

So.....anyone out there running a USB DAC, make sure you use firewire (not USB) for your hdd, and make sure you remove the power from said cable and use a clean isolated hopefully-conditioned wallwart instead.

My only real issue is this: when I go back to my Weiss DAC2, a firewire DAC, how does one remove power from a USB cable???

firedog · « **Reply #14 on:** 24 Mar 2011, 03:10 pm »

Ted when will we hear your comparison of the Young to the Weiss?

ted_b · « **Reply #15 on:** 24 Mar 2011, 03:55 pm »

Quote from: firedog on 24 Mar 2011, 03:10 pm

Ted when will we hear your comparison of the Young to the Weiss?

When the Young firmware/drivers stabilize. It is being sent back to Marco (Italy) to be redone again, due to static and swooshing sounds in right channel, but only intermittently (i.e when it happens it stays in that mode until powered won and left to rest..although the anomaly has yet to come back since the last driver update...which makes little sense since the static was evident through other inputs as well...).

Socrates7 · « **Reply #16 on:** 24 Mar 2011, 06:13 pm »

Grr. Another change to try out. Oh well.

Ted -- have you done a test between your Oyen and your WD drives, both using a wallwart? Just curious.

ted_b · « **Reply #17 on:** 24 Mar 2011, 06:17 pm »

No, my WD drives are now being used elsewhere and have no music on them currently. They were too noisy in the room anyway.

Quiet Earth · « **Reply #18 on:** 29 Mar 2011, 04:53 pm »

Well,,,, I bought a 6 foot GoldX 6pin to 4pin firewire cable and a no name 4pin to 6pin adapter. Now I have a firewire cable going to my hard drive without the power leg.

My previous firewire was a 24 inch cable with a large ferrite on one end. It came with the firewire hard drive and that's what I have been using since I started with CA.

The GoldX sounds better to me. At first, I thought that it sounded a little rolled off in the highs. Like the air that surrounds some sounds which gives you a feeling of space or image was missing. But then after going back and forth, I noticed that the highs were just more prominent and harsher sounding with the stock cable (with power leg). Cymbals were definitely more digital sounding with that crunchy non continuous sound. After going back and forth a few times over the course of about a day, I definitely prefer the GoldX. Not a night and day life changing experience mind you, but a once you hear it you know which one you prefer experience.

Hope that helps a little with Randy's OP.

I also bought a regular Goldx 6pin to 6pin firewire cable. When I have more free time I will compare the two GoldX cables and see if the missing power leg is what makes the improvement, or,,,, if the GoldX cable is just better than the free cable that I got with my hard drive.

Maybe that will help too. Stay tuned . . . .

(Edited for clarity of grammar ........ if that's possible.)

Temple · « **Reply #19 on:** 28 May 2011, 07:04 am »

So if I want to run a firewire 800 cable from my Mac Mini to the Oyen HD enclosure and have the power leg lifted would I want to pick up a 9 pin to 4 pin cable? Is there even a cable made this way? Or do I have to buy and adapter?